Under the earth = above the earth?

[arnoldo]

Ephesians 4:8-12
8Scripture says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train, and gave gifts to men." 9Now, the word ‘ascended’ implies that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth. 10He who descended is no other than he who ascended far above the heavens, so that he might fill the universe. 11And these were his gifts: some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip God’s people for work in his service, to the building up of the body of Christ. [NEB/NIV]

What are "the lower parts of the earth" ?

This could be the basis for Matthew 27:52-53, or vice-versa. . .

Those who arose from the dead with Yeshua during His resurrection became the first fruits of all those who would rise from the dead (Matthew [Mattityahu] 27:52-53; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
http://www.mayimhayim.org/Festivals/Feast5.htm

[Ben C. Smith]

Ephesians 4:8-12
8Scripture says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train, and gave gifts to men." 9Now, the word ‘ascended’ implies that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth. 10He who descended is no other than he who ascended far above the heavens, so that he might fill the universe. 11And these were his gifts: some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip God’s people for work in his service, to the building up of the body of Christ. [NEB/NIV]

What are "the lower parts of the earth" ?

This could be the basis for Matthew 27:52-53, or vice-versa. . .

Those who arose from the dead with Yeshua during His resurrection became the first fruits of all those who would rise from the dead (Matthew [Mattityahu] 27:52-53; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
http://www.mayimhayim.org/Festivals/Feast5.htm

Crossan, for one, surmises that the raised people in Matthew 27.52-53 are a relic of an earlier belief in the harrowing of hell.

[Giuseppe]

When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious-- that you, LORD God, might dwell there.

It seems that the divine goal in the Psalm is to make the place where he took many captives - before the ascension, at bottom - the place where God himself ''might dwell there''. A purified place.

If, for the author of Ephesians 4:8-9, that place is the 'realm of dead' (the same place meant in AoI as place of crucifixion) - (ie., the Sheol and NOT the Gehenna or Hell), then the entire quote of the Psalm in that point of Ephesians makes very much sense: the place of the RIGHT dead people becomes virtually the future Paradise, i.e. the place where the dead Good Thief will be ''today'' with the Risen.

[Giuseppe]

It would be interesting to know how the marcionites did interpret that passage. Did Jesus go to hell to rescue the people from the Demiurge's rule? If I remember well, some Gnostic text interpreted the Descensus ad Inferos in that way.

[Giuseppe]

Here I see the usual prejudice at work:

The debated phrase in Ephesians 4:9 is “τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς” which can be translated “the lower regions of the earth.” τὰ κατώτερα μέρη are in the accusative case while τῆς γῆς is in the genitive case. There are multiple ways one could take the genitive here.

Genitive of Comparison: parts lower than the earth or under the earth = Christ’s descent into Hades

Epexegetical Genitive/Appositional Genitive: lower parts, namely the earth = Christ’s incarnation

Partitive Genitive/Possessive Genitive: the earth’s lower parts = the grave

http://patrickschreiner.com/?p=12948
How can the ''lower parts, namely the earth'' coincide with ''Christ's incarnation'' ? Is Jerusalem in the ''lower parts'' ? I doubt very about it.

[Ben C. Smith]

Here I see the usual prejudice at work:

The debated phrase in Ephesians 4:9 is “τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς” which can be translated “the lower regions of the earth.” τὰ κατώτερα μέρη are in the accusative case while τῆς γῆς is in the genitive case. There are multiple ways one could take the genitive here.

Genitive of Comparison: parts lower than the earth or under the earth = Christ’s descent into Hades

Epexegetical Genitive/Appositional Genitive: lower parts, namely the earth = Christ’s incarnation

Partitive Genitive/Possessive Genitive: the earth’s lower parts = the grave

http://patrickschreiner.com/?p=12948
How can the ''lower parts, namely the earth'' coincide with ''Christ's incarnation'' ? Is Jerusalem in the ''lower parts'' ? I doubt very about it.

First, that is not (necessarily) prejudice: that is just laying all the options on the table.

Second, yes, if the second option were true, the earth would be equal to the "lower parts" (and "lower parts" would mean "parts lower than the heavens", which would include the entire earth). That is how the appositional genitive works. Jerusalem, as a location on the earth, would absolutely qualify. That is not controversial.

Now, you may freely doubt whether the appositional genitive is the best option here (it is not my preferred option so far, either), but there is no question as to whether the grammatical construction can be appositional: it certainly can be. And there is no question that Jerusalem would qualify as a viable destination for such a descent (unless you are questioning whether Jerusalem is located on the earth); it certainly can be.

The author may well be prejudiced in favor of one or another of those options (I have no idea, truly), but the presentation as you have laid it out above is not.

[Giuseppe]

Ubi maior, minor cessat.

I have found an interesting article of Dr. Gary Gromacki supporting the Descendus ad Inferos.
https://www.academia.edu/27029118/The_D ... o=download
I quote the interesting parts (my bold):

Hades had two compartments before the death and
resurrection of Christ: torments and Abraham’s bosom (or
Paradise). In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus said that
the rich man was in torments in Hades and could see Abraham
afar off and Lazarus in his bosom (Luke 16:23). There was a great
gulf fixed so that the rich man could not come over to Abraham’s
bosom (Luke 16:26). Abraham’s bosom in Hades would have
been the place where the souls of OT saints were located and
would be equivalent to Paradise. OT saints such as Adam, Eve,
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jonah, Daniel, and
even John the Baptist would have been in Abraham’s bosom in
Hades. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with
me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43).
The Paradise in Hades view proposes that when Christ died,
he descended into Hades not to suffer in the place of torments
with unbelievers (like the rich man of Luke 16) but to be in
Paradise (Abraham’s bosom) until his resurrection. Jesus already
suffered for the sins of the world on the cross. Before Jesus died
on the cross, he said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). Jesus did not
have to suffer in Hades to pay the penalty for our sins. He suffered
for our sins on the cross. Jesus did not go to Hades to suffer for
our sins.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, he took the OT saints with
him to heaven at his ascension. In this sense he led those in
captivity (to Satan) captive. After the ascension of Jesus, Paradise
was relocated to the third heaven. An evidence of this would be 2
Corinthians 12:1–4 where Paul describes what most scholars
would see as a possible out-of-body experience when he went up
to the third heaven (2 Cor 12:2) which he identifies as “paradise”
(2 Cor 12:3). When a Christian dies today, he goes to be “with
Christ” in the third heaven (Phil 1:23; 2 Cor 5:1–8). Today when
a Christian dies, he or she does not descend to Hades as Jesus did
when he died.
Today Hades has only one compartment (torments), and it is
the place where the souls of all unbelievers currently reside until
the resurrection of the lost at the end of the millennial kingdom
(Rev 20:11–13).

The strongest evidence for this view, as I see it, is:

30 When Jesus descended to Hades, he preached to the spirits in
prison (1 Pet 3:18–20). These “spirits in prison” could be a reference to
the fallen angels called the sons of God in Genesis 6 who disobeyed in
the time of Noah by taking wives. Jude refers to these fallen angels in
Jude vv. 6–7: “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain but
left their abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness
for the judgment of the great day as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities
around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over
to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an
example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

1 Peter 3:18-19 says:

ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπέθανεν, δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων, ἵνα ὑμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ Θεῷ, θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ ζωοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι·

He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,


ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν,

in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison

It seems that also 1 Peter fits with AoI and Ephesians about the Descendus ad Inferos (the Sheol and not the Gehenna).

But I find curious the distinction made by 1 Peter about the flesh and the spirit of Jesus.

The meaning of 1 Peter may be that only the spiritual Jesus ''went'' to Sheol and not the carnal (humanoid) Jesus.

But AoI says that also the carnal (humanoid) Jesus has to go to Sheol, and not only after the death (and abandon of the his body).

[iskander]

Into the lower parts of the earth. These words mean nothing more than the condition of the present life. To torture them so as to make them mean purgatory or hell, is exceedingly foolish.

Calvin's commentary on Ephesians

[Giuseppe]

Into the lower parts of the earth. These words mean nothing more than the condition of the present life. To torture them so as to make them mean purgatory or hell, is exceedingly foolish.


Calvin's commentary on Ephesians

The ''lower parts of earth'' as suffering condition on the earth? Seriously?




I'm reading again the AoI where it says:

13The Lord will indeed descend into the world in the last days, (he) who is to be called Christ after he has descended and become like you in form, and they will think that he is flesh and a man. 14And the god of that world will stretch out [his hand against the Son], and they will lay their hands upon him and hang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is. 15And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is. 16And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day and will remain in that world for five hundred and forty-five days.

In this case I think that the same interpretation of 1 Peter is possible for AoI:

1) the carnal (humanoid) Jesus dies (''into the world'' but which ''world'' is not specified, if earth or outer space).

2) only the spiritual Jesus goes to the realm of dead where he has plundered the angel of death

3) the spiritual Jesus is going to ascend (from sheol) and to show himself first to apostles as Paul and company, and then to Satan in the air.

Now, if Satan is the killer of Jesus (and not the angel of death in the Sheol), he will realize the identity of the his victim only AFTER that Jesus will show himself when he will ascend first to earth and secondly to the same air where Satan is been always.

AoI confirms again and again itself as a text that cannot give evidence about the where of the crucifixion.

I'm sorry.

[iskander]

Into the lower parts of the earth. These words mean nothing more than the condition of the present life. To torture them so as to make them mean purgatory or hell, is exceedingly foolish.

Calvin's commentary on Ephesians

As in Vergil's : "Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the underworld lies open both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above-- that's the task, that's the toil."