Under the earth = above the earth?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Under the earth = above the earth?

Post by Giuseppe »

But wait...

I see a possible plausible reconstruction of AoI's sequence of actions for Christ as supporting really the celestial crucifixion in outer space:

"Go forth and descent through all the heavens, and thou wilt descent to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend, but to Haguel thou wilt not go.

[Therefore the Sheol is the extreme place where Jesus will go to.

9. And thou wilt become like unto the likeness of all who are in the five heavens.


10. And thou wilt be careful to become like the form of the angels of the firmament [and the angels also who are in Sheol].

Therefore Jesus is still masked (by an humanoid flesh) in the Sheol!!!

11. And none of the angels of that world shall know that Thou art with Me of the seven heavens and of their angels.


12. And they shall not know that Thou art with Me, till with a loud voice I have called (to) the heavens, and their angels and their lights, (even) unto the sixth heaven, in order that you mayest judge and destroy the princes and angels and gods of that world, and the world that is dominated by them:

13. For they have denied Me and said: "We alone are and there is none beside us."


A mere repetition of the final divine goal.

14. And afterwards from the angels of death Thou wilt ascend to Thy place. And Thou wilt not be transformed in each heaven, but in glory wilt Thou ascend and sit on My right hand.


Therefore there is no doubt that Jesus meets the angels of death in Sheol with a mask of flesh and blood and a minute after without that mask. But where is located the Sheol in AoI ?

A strong clue of where the Sheol is located comes from the following passage 15:


13The Lord will indeed descend into the world in the last days, (he) who is to be called Christ after he has descended and become like you in form, and they will think that he is flesh and a man. 14And the god of that world will stretch out [his hand against the Son], and they will lay their hands upon him and hang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is.

Here the death of Jesus happens ''into the world''. Jesus is been killed. But has he still the mask of flesh and blood ? The following verse confirms that Jesus is STILL masked even after the death:
15And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is.
This verse 15 is saying that the now-dead humanoid Jesus is still masked as a humanoid when he is going to the Sheol ''from the heavens'': therefore these ''heavens'' are the ''world'' where he is been crucified in verse 14.

16And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day and will remain in that world for five hundred and forty-five days.

Now the dead Jesus throws the mask (!!!) and reveals himself in glory before the angel of death. In that world (the Sheol) Jesus is freeing the dead people from the Satan's rule, according to Ephesians and 1 Peter. De facto, he ''has plundered the angel of death''.

Therefore the function of verse 15 is to make a distinction between the ''world'' where Jesus is crucified (verse 14) and the world where Jesus defeats the angel of death (verse 16). That distinction is made by repeating :
15And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Under the earth = above the earth?

Post by Giuseppe »

Another clue supporting a clear distinction between the world of the demons (what Carrier calls outer space) and the earth considered per se:
12. And they shall not know that Thou art with Me, till with a loud voice I have called (to) the heavens, and their angels and their lights, (even) unto the sixth heaven, in order that you mayest judge and destroy the princes and angels and gods of that world, and the world that is dominated by them:
Why did the author feel the need of calling the angels and gods as one ''of THAT world'' and soon after specify as distinct from that (first mentioned) world ''the WORLD that is dominated by them'' ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Under the earth = above the earth?

Post by Giuseppe »

Therefore the sequence of steps is the following:

Jesus is masked when he descends in the world of demons (outer space).

He is killed in outer space.

He descends, once dead, to the Sheol, via the earth. He is still masked by a humanoid body.

He reveals himself ''in spirit'', i.e., without the humanoid body, before the angel of dead and defeats him.

He frees the captives of the sheol.

He will show himself in future by ascending from the sheol. First to apostles, then to Satan in the air.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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