First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by rakovsky » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 am

Shouldn't the Apocalypse of Peter be dated to at least 90-150 AD, since 4 Esdras, according to common dating, was written in 90-218?
The terminus post quem—the point after which we know the Apocalypse of Peter must have been written—is revealed by its use (in Chapter 3) of 4 Esdras, which was written about 100 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyps ... ter#Dating
In this respect it deserves attention that Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1), which is proof of an origin at least in the first half of the 2nd century. The terminus a quo can be more precisely determined through the time of origin of 4 Est. (about 100 A.D.), which was probably used in the Apocalypse of Peter (cf. 4 Est. with c. 3), and 2 Peter, the priority of which was demonstrated by F. Spitta.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/a ... peter.html
Besides, I remember the dating for 4 Esdras being pretty flexible, but thought it was in the late 1st century.
Further, different scholars have different views on the relationship between 2 Peter and the Apocalypse of Peter.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 21 (1911) says: "Of these theories there is least to be said for the dependence of the Apocalypse on 2 Peter, and perhaps most for the dependence of 2 Peter on the Apocalypse."

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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:00 am

The Catholic Advent site's encyclopedia says that the Shephard of Hermas is from the 1st to 2nd centuries. 8:3 in the Shepherd says "Thou shalt therefore write two little books, and shalt send one to Clement, and one to Grapte. So Clement shall send to the foreign cities, for this is his duty". And Clement was Pope in Rome in 88-99 AD. The Shepherd of Hermas is long and considered by many to have been added to over time, so this can explain signs in the writing that it was written later. So it looks like the earliest plausible date to me would be 88 AD when Clement started his papacy.

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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:08 am

Why are you so interested in all this exactness? The reality is that we might be able to determine OUR VERSION of these texts. Maybe. Most of these redactions took place late second - late third century CE. There might be an earlier text at the core. But how can we know any of these details with any exactness?
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:51 am

If Early Christianity was a bus, not only wouldn't there be a schedule, you might be standing on the corner and no bus might come at all
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:04 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 am
Shouldn't the Apocalypse of Peter be dated to at least 90-150 AD ...

Besides, I remember the dating for 4 Esdras being pretty flexible ...
I have a page on 4 Esdras too (Early Jewish Writings).

Daniel J. Harrington writes: "The narrative setting of 4 Ezra is the Babylonian exile in 557 B.C.E. Despite the fact that the historical Ezra led a group of returnees to Jerusalem some 100 or 150 years later, here he serves as the spokesman for the Jewish exiles in the sixth century B.C.E. However, the historical setting of 4 Ezra's composition seems to be the late first century C.E. This becomes most obvious in the vision of the eagle and the lion (11:1-12:51) where the eagle is clearly Rome and there are abundant references to the Roman emperors of the first century C.E. And so the Babylonian exile of the sixth century B.C.E. becomes the literary occasion for exploring the theological issues raised by the recent destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E. under the Romans. The eagle vision reaches its climax with reference to the three 'heads'—the late first-century C.E. Roman emperors Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian—who were responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and for the harassment of Jews afterward. Thus it appears that 4 Ezra was composed around 100 C.E. in the expectation of the imminent end of 'this age' (and the Roman empire) and the beginning of 'the age to come' (and the vindication of the righteous within Israel)." (Invitation to the Apocrypha, pp. 189-190)

David A. deSilva writes: "The focus of the vision, particularly underscored by the Messiah's indictment of the eagle during the reign of the third head, has led most scholars to suggest that the book was written during the last years of Domitian's reign. It is not to be inferred from this, however, that the author expected the end to come during that reign (Longenecker 1995: 13), for the text allows two puny wings to rule the empire in succession after the third head disappears (12:1-3). In fact, Domitian was succeeded by Nerva, an old senator whose reign was 'puny' (96-98 C.E.). Here the 'prophecy' fails, however, since the second puny wing, Trajan, turns out to be the most successful emperor since Augustus himself, reigning twenty years and expanding the empire's boundaries to their furthest reach. It is therefore quite possible that the author wrote during Nerva's reign or even at the beginning of Trajan's, which would bring us up to 100 C.E., the 'thirtieth year' after Jerusalem's destruction (see 3:1). If this is true, then it would be quite significant that the author presents the indictment of Rome by God's Messiah as an event already accomplished: the verdict had been rendered, and the sentence will soon be carried out." (Introducing the Apocrypha, pp. 331-332)
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:07 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 am
The terminus post quem—the point after which we know the Apocalypse of Peter must have been written—is revealed by its use (in Chapter 3) of 4 Esdras, which was written about 100 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyps ... ter#Dating
In this respect it deserves attention that Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1), which is proof of an origin at least in the first half of the 2nd century. The terminus a quo can be more precisely determined through the time of origin of 4 Est. (about 100 A.D.), which was probably used in the Apocalypse of Peter (cf. 4 Est. with c. 3), and 2 Peter, the priority of which was demonstrated by F. Spitta.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/a ... peter.html
No need to correct the Wikipedia then, since it says the same thing.
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:46 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:00 am
The Catholic Advent site's encyclopedia says that the Shephard of Hermas is from the 1st to 2nd centuries. 8:3 in the Shepherd says "Thou shalt therefore write two little books, and shalt send one to Clement, and one to Grapte. So Clement shall send to the foreign cities, for this is his duty". And Clement was Pope in Rome in 88-99 AD. The Shepherd of Hermas is long and considered by many to have been added to over time, so this can explain signs in the writing that it was written later. So it looks like the earliest plausible date to me would be 88 AD when Clement started his papacy.
As a matter of method, not every scholarly theory on dating is always given credit. The Catholic Encyclopedia (what you call the "Catholic Advent site's encyclopedia") already, at the beginning of the 20th century, considered a first century date of Hermas to be an out-of-date/discredited view.
Zahn, in an early work (1868), stood by the references to St. Clement and imagined a Hermas, neither known to St. Paul nor brother to St. Pius, but writing in the last decade of the first century. He was followed by Peters and Caspari. But Hefele had been teaching that we cannot refuse the contemporary witness of the Muratorian Fragment, and this view has in the end prevailed amongst scholars, being now almost universally received.
That said, the other views (written in the 90s, or even written earlier in the 60s, 70s, or 80s) could be mentioned.
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:04 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 am
NonChristian Jews writing on Christianity
70-100 Shmuel ha-Katan's Birkat Ha Minim (A story on its background is in Talmud Bab. B'rakhot 28b-29a & Talmud Jer. Ber. 4:3, 8a)
Fits under Talmud? Maybe.
rakovsky wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 am
Pagans writing on Christianity
112-109 BC - 180 AD Thallus' History (on the darkness or eclipse)
Hard to say. It's an eyesore to lead the chronological list with Thallus, which is part of Julius Africanus and not necessarily related to Christianity.
rakovsky wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 am
41-51 Seneca's On Anger (maybe not about Jesus))
Hmm. Maybe not...
77-79 Pliny the Elder's Historia Naturalis, Book V (about the Essenes and Nazerini / Nosairis)
This is reasonable.
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:28 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 am
100-160 Gospel/Traditions of Matthias (EW dates it to 110-160 ntcanon.org/Traditions_of_Matthias.shtml dates it to 100-150)(Clement Alexandrine respects it & Codex Baroccianus lists it as canonical; Eusebius & Gelasian Decree consider it heretical)
I could make this change, but it's not very significant either way.

You may get a sense of proportion from the info boxes on the site, which have a "reliability of dating" rating for each text.
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:07 pm
rakovsky wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 am
The terminus post quem—the point after which we know the Apocalypse of Peter must have been written—is revealed by its use (in Chapter 3) of 4 Esdras, which was written about 100 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyps ... ter#Dating
In this respect it deserves attention that Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1), which is proof of an origin at least in the first half of the 2nd century. The terminus a quo can be more precisely determined through the time of origin of 4 Est. (about 100 A.D.), which was probably used in the Apocalypse of Peter (cf. 4 Est. with c. 3), and 2 Peter, the priority of which was demonstrated by F. Spitta.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/a ... peter.html
No need to correct the Wikipedia then, since it says the same thing.
The reasoning seems to be in the Wiki and ECW articles that the Apocalypse of Peter was probably written after 4 Esdras because it included part of 4 Esdras, which it proposes was written perhaps around 100 AD. But first, maybe it was the other way around, and 4 Esdras was a Jewish Christian work that incorporated the Apocalypse of Peter? And besides that, many articles that are directly about 4 Esdras seem pretty flexible about the date, so that 4 Esdras, and hence the Apocalypse of Peter, could actually be written at the earliest in 90 AD.

For example, Domitian ruled in 81 to 96 AD, and the Early Writings entry says that DeSilva notes "most scholars... suggest that the book was written during the last years of Domitian's reign." So this flexibility and variety of opinions on 4 Esdras is a reason why I think it's worth estimating the potential date for the Apocalypse of Peter earlier than 100 AD.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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