First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by John2 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:31 pm

John2 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:41 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:24 pm
John2 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:59 pm
Oh, maybe the problem could be if Ebion is spelled differently in Aramaic (which I'm not familiar with). In any event, I wouldn't mind seeing a translation of whatever Lightfoot saw.
Here is what I take to be the original reference in Lightfoot: https://books.google.com/books?id=-SlWA ... 22&f=false. (This is not the famous Lightfoot of the Victorian era, but rather John Lightfoot, the churchman from century XVII.)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It feels like I've hit a roadblock though since I can't find what he saw in the Jerusalem Talmud.
BTW, regarding the reference to Ebion in your link, does that say that it is in tractate Yoma (fol. 4 col. 3) of the Jerusalem Talmud? It's hard to tell from that old fashioned script, and if it is (and it would at least be nice to know if it is), I'm not getting any hits in a word search for אביון in Yoma (though I do see Rabbi Yohannan's name, as per the snippet view I saw above that ascribed the reference to Ebion to him). Maybe it could be a matter of the spelling of Ebion there (as I was wondering earlier regarding Sanhedrin), though Lightfoot also spells it אביון.

https://www.sefaria.org/Jerusalem_Talmu ... 4a?lang=bi
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:21 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:31 pm
John2 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:41 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:24 pm
John2 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:59 pm
Oh, maybe the problem could be if Ebion is spelled differently in Aramaic (which I'm not familiar with). In any event, I wouldn't mind seeing a translation of whatever Lightfoot saw.
Here is what I take to be the original reference in Lightfoot: https://books.google.com/books?id=-SlWA ... 22&f=false. (This is not the famous Lightfoot of the Victorian era, but rather John Lightfoot, the churchman from century XVII.)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It feels like I've hit a roadblock though since I can't find what he saw in the Jerusalem Talmud.
BTW, regarding the reference to Ebion in your link, does that say that it is in tractate Yoma (fol. 4 col. 3) of the Jerusalem Talmud?
It appears so to me, but I am not completely sure.
It's hard to tell from that old fashioned script, and if it is (and it would at least be nice to know if it is), I'm not getting any hits in a word search for אביון in Yoma (though I do see Rabbi Yohannan's name, as per the snippet view I saw above that ascribed the reference to Ebion to him). Maybe it could be a matter of the spelling of Ebion there (as I was wondering earlier regarding Sanhedrin), though Lightfoot also spells it אביון.
Not sure what to tell you here. I cannot find it either.
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StephenGoranson
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by StephenGoranson » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:05 am

I do not recall finding any Jerusalem Talmud reference to Ebion when I was researching for "Ebionites" in Anchor Bible Dictionary. My dissertation, page 92ff, includes mention of a *possible* obscured spelling reference to houses of Ebionites and Nazarenes in Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 116a.
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Joseph_of_Tiberias.pdf

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Secret Alias
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:33 am

It doesn't exist. It's in the Philosophumena
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Nathan
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Nathan » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:55 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:21 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:31 pm
John2 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:41 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:24 pm
John2 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:59 pm
Oh, maybe the problem could be if Ebion is spelled differently in Aramaic (which I'm not familiar with). In any event, I wouldn't mind seeing a translation of whatever Lightfoot saw.
Here is what I take to be the original reference in Lightfoot: https://books.google.com/books?id=-SlWA ... 22&f=false. (This is not the famous Lightfoot of the Victorian era, but rather John Lightfoot, the churchman from century XVII.)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It feels like I've hit a roadblock though since I can't find what he saw in the Jerusalem Talmud.
BTW, regarding the reference to Ebion in your link, does that say that it is in tractate Yoma (fol. 4 col. 3) of the Jerusalem Talmud?
It appears so to me, but I am not completely sure.
It's hard to tell from that old fashioned script, and if it is (and it would at least be nice to know if it is), I'm not getting any hits in a word search for אביון in Yoma (though I do see Rabbi Yohannan's name, as per the snippet view I saw above that ascribed the reference to Ebion to him). Maybe it could be a matter of the spelling of Ebion there (as I was wondering earlier regarding Sanhedrin), though Lightfoot also spells it אביון.
Not sure what to tell you here. I cannot find it either.
FWIW there is a Rabbi Abin mentioned in Yerushalmi Yoma. Given that the text of the Yerushalmi is notoriously corrupt, I wonder if Lightfoot read "Ebion" (אביון) where others read "Abin" (אבין).

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Secret Alias
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:57 am

אבין as the denominated form of אביון? Maybe.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:59 am

אבין to pauperize.
— Pi. - אִבְיֵן he pauperized.
— Pu. - אֻבְיַן was pauperized. [Denominated from אֶבְיוֹן.]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

StephenGoranson
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by StephenGoranson » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:41 am

Good suggestion, Nathan. Thanks.

StephenGoranson
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by StephenGoranson » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:31 am

That is, Nathan's suggestion may explain why Lightfoot imagined Ebion appeared in Jerusalem Talmud. Not that R. Abin--nor an imagined person Ebion, for that matter--really founded Ebionites. (Philospohumena was published after Lightfoot's lifetime.)

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rakovsky
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Re: First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Post by rakovsky » Fri May 24, 2019 9:01 am

How many 1st to 2nd nonChristian writers who mentioned Christians described them as odd? How many did not? Peter Kirby writes:
If there is one impression that we can gather from the references to Christians in our non-Christian sources, one common theme that that runs through Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Epictetus, Lucian, Marcus Aurelius, Galen, Celsus, and Philostratus, it is the inherent oddity they ascribe to the group. The only real exception in the literature of the era that stands out is that attributed to Mara Bar-Serapion... SOURCE: http://peterkirby.com/mara-bar-serapion ... ntury.html
Certainly, some Christian teachings and practices could seem strange to a non-Christian, like the man Jesus being the Second Person of the Trinity or the Eucharist having Jesus' body and blood. Paul in one epistle said that the teaching of the crucified Messiah was "nonsense to the Greeks."

Out of the non-Christian writers who commented on Christianity, Thallus and Phlegon might have seen Christianity as odd, since they might have proposed a natural phenomenon for the darkness at the Passion. The rabbinical Council of Jamnia saw them as odd, since their Birkat Ha-Minim curses the heretics, and was aimed at Christians among them. The Talmud records hostile statements from Rabbi Akiva about Christians in the early 2nd century. Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Tacitus described Christians as having superstitio (excessive religiousity). Galen, Celsus, and Lucian criticized Christianity for superstition. Minucius Felix wrote that Fronto "scattered reproaches as a rhetorician". Seneca and his brother, the consul Gallo, might not have seen Christianity as odd, since Seneca referred respectfully referred to a crucified leader, who may have been Jesus. And Gallo let Paul go when charged by rabbis in Corinth. Pliny the Elder referred to the Nazerini in Syria in a straightforward way, as if they were well organized politically, and didn't mention anything odd. In his letter, Hardian says to punish Christians depending on their shamelessness.

Josephus most likely didn't consider them odd, since his passages on John the Baptist, Jesus, and James treat those figures respectfully. He writes that the Christians are still around at his time of writing, and doesn't directly state that they are odd. However, I believe that Josephus was actually a Christian. Epictetus praised Christians as an example of those who live a Stoic approach to persecution. He writes that just as crazy people might endure it by their madness, the Galileans endure it by "habit". However, I think that Epictetus might have been a Christian who syncretized his beliefs with Greek paganism. Mara Bar Serapion respected the Jews' wise king (perhaps Jesus) whom they killed. But he could have been a Christian. Kirby writes that Philostratus saw Christianity as odd, but Philostratus didn't directly mention it, and scholars debate whether his biography of Appollonius implies hostility to Christianity. Marcus Aurelius didn't characterize them as odd: His empire persecuted Christians on occasion, and in his Meditations, he criticized Christians for being ready to die out of their obstinacy. But "Eusebius says that Marcus wrote letters stating that in Germany his army was saved from thirst 'by the Christians’ prayers, and Marcus threatened to execute any who attempted to accuse us.'"(http://www.seekingvirtueandwisdom.com/m ... istianity/) Trajan's reply to Pliny the Younger advises caution and restraint in suppressing them, and refers to the scenario of Christians not worshiping the Romans' gods, but doesn't say anything particularly weird about them.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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