First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky »

DCHindley wrote:
There are authors of original material and there are editors of sources. Something like parts of the T12P are found among the DSS, but not anything like what Christians were preserving. The T12P may utilize Jewish materials, but has certainly given them Christian perspective. I do not think that anything like the Testament of Adam was found among the DSS, so it is almost certainly a Christian composition.
HI DCH,
In this thread I am trying to establish the earliest possible date. So its not not an issue of thinking along the line of "Well, it should be so, so it must have been so."
It's an issue of thinking "it reasonably could have been so, so this is a possible date".

I doubt that it's almost certain that if some writing is not found in the DSS it couldn't have been Jewish and must have been christian.

1. I am open to the idea it was originally NonChristian jewish but with christian additions. Notice how much longer version a is than version b. There probably could be major interpolation and addition.
2. If it was christian, it doesn't have to be written after the whole NT was completed, because it could use oral traditions or else books or fragment colluquys from before the completion.
3. nor am I totally sure the whole NT was basically completed after 100 ad.

So there are too many unknowns there for me to be certain it was made, minus interpolations, after 100 ad.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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One thing I notice missing from my apocrypha list on page 1 of this thread are any Christian apocryphas of Moses or David. I don't think I overlooked any, rather such don't seem to have been written.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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rakovsky wrote:One thing I notice missing from my apocrypha list on page 1 of this thread are any Christian apocryphas [apocryphal? books] of Moses or David. I don't think I overlooked any, rather such don't seem to have been written.
A quick check says you are right, none were present in Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha volumes, but there is an Apocalypse of Moses (in the index, although named the Revelation of Moses in the text) in volume VIII ("8") of the 19th century American edition of the Ante Nicene Fathers series, page 565ff. It will doubtlessly be online. Per the editors,
The Apocalypse of Moses.—This document belongs to the Apocrypha of the Old Testament rather than that of the New. We have been unable to find in it any reference to any Christian writing. In its form, too, it appears to be a portion of some larger work. Parts of it at least are of an ancient date, as it is very likely from this source that the writer of the Gospel of Nicodemus took the celebrated legend of the Tree of Life and the Oil of Mercy. An account of this legend will be found in Cowper’s Apocryphal Gospels, xcix.–cii.; in Maury, Croyances et Légendes de l’Antiquité, p. 294; in Renan’s commentary to the Syriac text of the Penitence of Adam, edited and translated by Renan in the Journal Asiatique for 1853. There appeared a poetical rendering of the legend in Blackwood’s Magazine ten or twelve years ago. [page 358]
FWIW, I also think that the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a Revelation of Moses revealed through one of their Prophets. Offhand, I cannot locate my copy of the Book of Mormon, which includes this Revelation of Moses as an appendix.

There was nothing coming up with searches of "Revelation of David" but I did get a couple hits for "Apocalypse of David" which is preserved in Hebrew as part of Rabbinic apocrypha. There is apparently a connection between it and Heckaloth literature (see 3rd aka Hebrew Enoch and throne mysticism generally).

I did notice that in the same volume 8 of the ANF, in the Gospel of Nicodemus, David cries out from Hades
Chapter 7 (23).
And again there came the voice of the Son of the Father most high, as it were the voice of a great thunder, saying: Lift up your gates, ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates, and the King of glory will come in. Then Satan and Hades cried out, saying: Who is the king of glory? And it was answered to them in the voice of the Lord: The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle. ... Then holy David, inflamed with anger against Satan, cried out aloud: Open thy gates, most vile wretch, that the King of glory may come in. In like manner also all the saints of God rose up against Satan, and would have seized him, and divided him among them. And again a cry was heard within: Lift up your gates, ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates; and the King of glory shall come in. Hades and Satan, at that clear voice, again asked, saying: Who is this king of glory? And it was said to them by that wonderful voice: The
Lord of powers, He is the King of glory.

Chapter 8 (24).
And, behold, suddenly Hades trembled, and the gates of death and the bolts were shattered, and the iron bars were broken and fell to the ground, and everything was laid open. And Satan remained in the midst, and stood confounded and downcast, bound with fetters on his feet. And, behold, the Lord Jesus Christ, coming in the brightness of light from on high, compassionate, great, and lowly, carrying a chain in His hand, bound Satan by the neck; and again tying his hands behind him, dashed him on his back into Tartarus, and placed His holy foot on his throat, saying: Through all ages thou hast done many evils; thou hast not in any wise rested. To-day I deliver thee to everlasting fire. And Hades being suddenly summoned, He commanded him, and said: Take this most wicked and impious one, and have him in thy keeping even to that day in which I shall command thee. And he, as soon as he received him, was plunged under the feet of the Lord along with him into the depth of the abyss.


DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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DCHindley wrote:
rakovsky wrote:One thing I notice missing from my apocrypha list on page 1 of this thread are any Christian apocryphas [apocryphal? books] of Moses or David. I don't think I overlooked any, rather such don't seem to have been written.
A quick check says you are right, none were present in Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha volumes, but there is an Apocalypse of Moses (in the index, although named the Revelation of Moses in the text) in volume VIII ("8") of the 19th century American edition of the Ante Nicene Fathers series, page 565ff. It will doubtlessly be online. Per the editors,

We have been unable to find in it any reference to any Christian writing.
FWIW, I also think that the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a Revelation of Moses revealed through one of their Prophets. Offhand, I cannot locate my copy of the Book of Mormon, which includes this Revelation of Moses as an appendix.

DCH
Is that the same as the Book of Jubilees?
It was well known to Early Christians, as evidenced by the writings of Epiphanius, Justin Martyr, Origen, Diodorus of Tarsus, Isidore of Alexandria, Isidore of Seville, Eutychius of Alexandria, John Malalas, George Syncellus, and George Kedrenos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees

The Book of Jubilees; The Little Genesis, The Apocalypse of Moses ...
https://www.amazon.com/Jubilees-Little- ... 1933580097
The Book of Jubilees, also known as The Little Genesis and The Apocalypse of Moses, opens with an extraordinary claim of authorship.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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rakovsky wrote:
DCHindley wrote:FWIW, I also think that the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have a Revelation of Moses revealed through one of their Prophets. Offhand, I cannot locate my copy of the Book of Mormon, which includes this Revelation of Moses as an appendix.
Is that the same as the Book of Jubilees?
It was well known to Early Christians, as evidenced by the writings of Epiphanius, Justin Martyr, Origen, Diodorus of Tarsus, Isidore of Alexandria, Isidore of Seville, Eutychius of Alexandria, John Malalas, George Syncellus, and George Kedrenos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees

The Book of Jubilees; The Little Genesis, The Apocalypse of Moses ...
https://www.amazon.com/Jubilees-Little- ... 1933580097
The Book of Jubilees, also known as The Little Genesis and The Apocalypse of Moses, opens with an extraordinary claim of authorship.
No, this Revelation/Apocalypse of Moses in the ANF volume is something else altogether. It is essentially a Jewish apocrypon that was preserved by Christians. The one in the Book of Mormon is basically a modern revelation, not an ancient one.

On the other hand the book of Jubilees, which was sometimes referred to as the "Apocalypse of Moses", is an Hebrew Epitome of the five books of the Law of Moses, but placed in God's own Mouth so as to allow it to be used as a substitute for them. It was among the books found among the DSS caves where it has a rather high estimation, but was previously known in Ethiopic translation.

DCH
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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Thanks. I read it's considered Jewish like Book of Enoch.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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Early Writings website puts Testament of Abraham in the Jewish Writings section, so it's not like I am in total left field in saying it doesn't have to be limited to a date after 100 AD due to Christian parts that could be interpolations:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testabraham.html

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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rakovsky wrote:Early Writings website puts Testament of Abraham in the Jewish Writings section, so it's not like I am in total left field in saying it doesn't have to be limited to a date after 100 AD due to Christian parts that could be interpolations:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testabraham.html
Jewish apocrypha cannot be written even in CE times?

FWIW, looking at the Index to Charlesworth's O.T. Pseudepigrapha (vol 2) under "Moses" I see that the Greek version of the Life of Adam and Eve also went by the name Apocalypse (= Revelation) of Moses.

DCH
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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DCHindley wrote:
rakovsky wrote:Early Writings website puts Testament of Abraham in the Jewish Writings section, so it's not like I am in total left field in saying it doesn't have to be limited to a date after 100 AD due to Christian parts that could be interpolations:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/testabraham.html
Jewish apocrypha cannot be written even in CE times?
DCH
Of course nonChristian Jewish apocrypha can.
But if it's nonChristian Jewish apocrypha with Christian interpolations, that means that Christian interpolations no longer dictate that the nonChristian apocrypha was written after the New Testament.

Being a nonChristian work invalidates the reason given for a date after 100 AD - the existence of Christian interpolations.

Am I explaining that clearly enough?

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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rakovsky wrote:Am I explaining that clearly enough?
Clear as mud ... :cheeky:

To me, there still seems to be a bit of confusion over what works are what, because several have overlapping names. You can download OCR PDFs of the 9 content volumes of the ANF (actually, vols 1-8, 10, with 9 being an index of the first 8 volumes), search them for the relevant books, copy the summaries that usually precede the translations, and place them in a database (you can use a spreadsheet, which is essentially a simple database program if you think about it).

Add additional rows for books you can find in Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. I'd heartily encourage you to try to purchase copies of both volumes, whether you have to buy them new or used. I think they are in print, at least periodically.

Other annotated resources for books might come from Emil Schürer's History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ, of which all 5 volumes of the second edition of the English Translation OCRd PDFs are available online. If you are brave, see if you can find a library with the newer revised English edition from the 70-s-80s, edited by Matthew Black & Geza Vermes. Many will have this, which for some unexplained reason never came out in paperback. If you try to buy used, good luck with that. There are 3 "volumes", but vol 3 has two parts, so there are physically 4 volumes. Vol I vol II, vol IIIa & vol IIIb.

Telephone orders as well as Internet orders can be risky as vol IIIb is often not listed as available, even though it is. Save yourself the hassle, and use ISBNs to order. There is a file in the Formal Debate folder with all the ISBNs for the four volumes. Maybe I'll approach them about some sort of print to order deal to make them available to all. As long as I am at is, I'll also approach the publisher of the five volume Anchor Bible Dictionary to see if they might go for a print to order arrangement or at least make the CD version available again.

Back to the OP, dedicate each book a row in the spreadsheet, and use several columns for name of book, alias names for the book, date of publication of the translation, the passages that seem to be specifically Christian and notes about them. You may need several rows for each work unless you use a modern relational database like MS Access, but I do not know what other programs, perhaps for Apple/Mac, are available outside of the USA.

Here, alternatives like Paradox seem to have gone out of vogue and may not even work under Win7 or 10, although I did once take a class on using Access in the mid 1990s. What you can do data manipulation wise with Access is actually quite amazing, although it would probably require a bit of time to re-acquaint myself with it.

Now you are in a position to identify the correct work, then compare and contrast them to your hearts content. However, there really are a lot of alternate names for various works out there, making this tricky.

Have fun!

DCH
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