First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky »

So long as the Early Writings list is going to include possibly Christian influenced Jewish books like the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Gospel of Eve, and the Odes of Solomon, then there's also 5 and 6 Esdras (90 - 218 AD):
The scholarly interpretation of the eagle being the Roman Empire (the eagle in the fifth vision, whose heads might be Vespasian, Titus and Domitian if such is the case) and the destruction of the temple would indicate that the probable date of composition lies toward the end of the first century, perhaps 90–96, though some suggest a date as late as 218.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras

NOTE: OK, I SEE THAT IT IS HERE UNDER EARLY JEWISH WRITINGS ON THE WEBSITE AS "2 ESDRAS" (The Protestant name for it):
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/2esdras.html
Last edited by rakovsky on Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky »

Peter Kirby wrote:
These are questionable/uncertain candidates for inclusion (I am willing to be persuaded that one or more of these three should be included on the site):
  • Questions of Bartholomew
  • Gospel of Bartholomew
  • Resurrection of Jesus Christ (by Bartholomew)
Not sure why they are uncertain, since the first two are dated from 100 AD up to Jerome's time (early/mid 4th c.), while the website list already has:
300-600 Gospel of Gamaliel
320-380 Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions

Both I think were written after G.Bartholomew or Q.Bartholomew

It can be helpful just as reference even if the latest date, Jerome's time, turns out to be correct. For example, the website list includes:
70-160 Secret Mark

But my best guess is that Secret Mark was composed in the 20th c. AD. Why? Because the person who found it was already advancing the thesis about Jesus' homosexuality that the "snippets" from Secret Mark portray. I think that this is no coincidence.
In 1973, Morton Smith, a professor of ancient history at Columbia University, reported having found a previously unknown letter of Clement of Alexandria in the monastery of Mar Saba on the West Bank transcribed into the endpapers of a 17th-century printed edition of the works of Ignatius of Antioch. The original manuscript was subsequently transferred to another monastery, and the manuscript is believed to be lost. Further research has relied upon photographs and copies, including those made by Smith himself.
...
Subsequent study, including handwriting analysis of higher quality color photographs of the document, first published in 2000, revealed more possible evidence of forgery, and led scholars such as Craig A. Evans and Emanuel Tov to conclude the work is a hoax, with Smith being the most likely perpetrator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark
So I think the Secret Mark entry should read (70 - 1973 AD).

But even though I think it's a modern fraud, then so long as the jury is out, I think it's worth being in your list.

I would say something similar about g.Bartholomew.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Peter Kirby »

Makes sense. Let me know if you find anything else. Thanks.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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Peter,
There is also the Gospel of Matthias. It could be the same as the Traditions of Matthias, which is already on your list.
One idea could be that in the titles of items you include a slash / and then put a secondary name after it in case you identify the two documents as the same.
So in case you believe that Traditions of Matthias (already on your list) is the same as Gospel of Matthias and don't want to make two entries, then it might be a good idea to include both titles in your list next to each other.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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There is also the The Letter of the Gallican Churches (c. 177 AD) missing.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0833/_PJ.HTM

I like your list a lot, Peter. I think it's a great reference point. So my discussion here is meant as positive constructive contributions.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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rakovsky wrote:There is also the The Letter of the Gallican Churches (c. 177 AD) missing.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0833/_PJ.HTM
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/viennalyons.html
J. Quasten writes (Patrology, vol. 1, p. 180): "The Letter of the Churches of Vienna and Lyons to the Churches of Asia and Phrygia, which gives a moving account of the sufferings of the martyrs who died in the sever persecution of the Church of Lyons in 177, or 178, and which is preserved by Eusebius (Hist. eccl. 5,1,1-2,8), is one of the most interesting documents of the persecutions. It does not conceal the apostasy of some members of the community. Among the courageous martyrs we see Bishop Photinus 'being over ninety years of age and very sick in body, scarcely breathing from the sickness, but strengthened by zeal of the spirit from his vehement desire for martyrdom'; the admirable Blandina, a frail and delicate female slave, who upheld the courage of her companions by her example and words; Maturus, a neophyte of amazing fortitude; Sanctus, a deacon of Vienne; Alexander, the physician; and Ponticus, a boy of fifteen years of age."
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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Peter Kirby wrote:
rakovsky wrote:There is also the The Letter of the Gallican Churches (c. 177 AD) missing.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0833/_PJ.HTM
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/viennalyons.html
Thanks Peter.
Like I said, I love your list because it's very inclusive and includes a summary of the contents.
It would be easier for me to use if the alternate titles like "Letter of the Gallican Churches" were marked next to the main title in the list with a slash.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Secret Alias »

If the Letter to Theodore was a forgery it would read (70 - 1958 CE) the year the text was discovered. 1973 was the publication of the study not the year of discovery.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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Secret Alias wrote:If the Letter to Theodore was a forgery it would read (70 - 1958 CE) the year the text was discovered. 1973 was the publication of the study not the year of discovery.
What is the earliest year that it could be proven independently to have existed, beyond M.Smith claiming that in a certain year he found it?

For example, if an archaeologist, long known as a proponent of the theory that vikings lived in Minnesota, claimed in 2010 to have found 10th century viking runes in Minnesota in 1980 and only produced them in 2014, the latest date when the runes could have been engraved would be 2014. 2014 would be the earliest date when the runes could be independently verified to exist.

So for example in the case of Secret Mark:
In 1973, Morton Smith published a book on a previously unknown letter of Clement of Alexandria. He stated that, while cataloging documents at the ancient Greek Orthodox monastery of Mar Saba in the summer of 1958, he discovered the text of the letter handwritten into the endpapers of Isaac Vossius' 1646 printed edition of the works of Ignatius of Antioch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Go ... aba_letter
So in 1973 M.Smith claimed that back in 1958 he discovered the text. But do we have any way to corroborate that he did in fact have the text already in 1958, beyond his 1973 claim that he did?

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

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I found a 8 page edition of the Preaching of Peter edited by Margaret Gibson and published by Cambridge Press:

THE PREACHING OF PETER
First published in: 1896
Edited and translated by Margaret Dunlop Gibson
Publisher: Cambridge University Press
Chapter DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139169127.008
pp 52-59

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ap ... 9B076CE364

On our forum's site we have the 1924 edition by M.R. James
http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/ ... peter.html

One issue is that for some of these texts that are found in fragments across ancient writers, different modern editors can collect different fragments. The Text Excavation website gives some longer quotes than James does.
http://www.textexcavation.com/preachingpeter.html

So I like it when the Early Writings website lists a couple different translations on its pages about these kinds of "piecemeal" texts (Gospel of the Hebrews, Preaching of Peter, etc.).

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