First Century Christian Writings Missing from our Forum's Website

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:13 am

Good advice.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:45 pm

What do you think of the range of dating for the Acts of Thomas and the Hymn of the Pearl therein?
Early Writings says:
Estimated Range of Dating: 200-225 A.D.

Some form of the work was clearly in circulation by the end of the 4th century when testimonies begin. Epiphanius (Anac. 47.1 and 60.1.5) records its use by Encratites. Augustine (de serm. dom. in monte 1.20.65; c. Adiamantium 17; c. Faustum 14 and 22.79) attests its use by Manicheans

Some sections, particularly the originally independent Hymn of the Pearl, presuppose conditions in the Parthian period, which ended with the establishment of the Sassanian Empire in 226 C.E. It is likely that Acts Thom. underwent redactional development, including adaptation by Manicheans, in the late 3d or 4th centuries.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actsthomas.html
OK, I see it would have been written before 226 AD. I am looking for the earliest date it could have been written.
Ther Acts of THomas show the closest relation with the Acts of Peter. If this means that the Acts of THomas are dependent on the Acts of Peter, the Acts of Thomas were written in the beginning of the third c.
...
The oldest description known is obviously met in the Apocalypse of Peter dating from the first half of the second c. On account of this early date the description in the Acts of THomas is generally supposed to be dependent on the Apoc. of Peter.
A thorough study of the Apocalypse of Peter and the Acts of Thomas however shows that the agreement between these two is limited to the way in which the different punishments are described only.
The Acts of Thomas, edited by Albertus Frederik Johannes Klijn
"The Acts of Thomas" (see APOCRYPHAL ACTS, sec. B, V), a Gnostic work dating from the 2nd century, tells how when the world was partitioned out as a mission field among the disciples
Susan Myers writes at length on this question in her book Spirit Epiclesis:
https://books.google.com/books?id=R7oK3 ... ng&f=false

She doesn't date it near the 1st c.

Another writer talks about the Hymn of the Pearl in that work:
While Kuryluk38would date it from the early third century, Judah Segal sees this hymn "composed originally in Syriac, [a work antedating] the main text of the Acts of Thomas and may go back to the first century A.D."39

Jean Danielou, in an article entitled "Christianity as a Jewish Sect", seems to settle this debate when he declares:
The earliest documents we have on Edessan Christianity - namely the Gospel of Thomas,the Song[Hymn]of the Pearl contained in the Acts of Thomas, and the Odes of Solomon-go back, in part, to the end of the 1st century and display the characteristic features ofJudaeo-Christianity40

39. Segal, J. 1970.pgs. 31 & 68.
40. Danielou, J. 1969.The Crucible of Christianity. Ed. Arnold Toynbee. New York: WorldPublishing Company,, p. 277. See also A. Adam (Die Psalmen des Thomas und dasPerlenlied als Zeugnisse vorchristlicher Gnosis [Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für dieneutestamentliche Wissenschaft 24; Berlin: Alfred Töpelmann, 1959], 60, 70) who judge sit to have been written in the first century C.E. and G. Widengren (“Der iranische Hintergrund der Gnosis,”Zeitschrift für Religions - und Geistgeschicte4 [1952] 97-114)1969 who dates this hymn as early as 150 B.C.E.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/dreisbc2.pdf
Some scholars believe the hymn antedates the Acts, as it only appears in one Syriac manuscript and one Greek manuscript of the Acts of Thomas. The author of the Hymn is unknown, though there is a belief that it was composed by the Syriac gnostic Bardaisan [second half of the 2nd c.] due to some parallels between his life and that of the hymn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn_of_the_Pearl
"If the Hymn of the Pearl was written in a Gnostic milieu, only later to be incorporated int o the Acts of Thomas, it may have been composed sometime in the late 2nd c. of the pearl" Bart Ehrman, Lost Scriptures

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:18 pm

Should 2 Clement be dated to 130-160 like ECW list does?

Modern scholars believe that Second Clement is actually a sermon written around 95-140 CE by an anonymous author, one who was neither the author of 1 Clement nor Clement of Rome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Clement
Grant also writes (op. cit., p. 1061):
Scholars have noted the "synoptic-type" Jewish piety of the sermon, perhaps surprising around A.D. 140-160 (the epistle's approximate date). The work appears to rely upon the Gospel of John as well, however, notably in 9:5-6: "
http://earlychristianwritings.com/2clement.html
If that's surprising, maybe it's better to give an earlier dating?

Another writer says that 2 Clement is respected by the church and that it cites G.Thomas and that this is why it's dated late. If that's true and in fact G.Thomas is not late in date, then that makes 2 Clement possibly earlier, right?
the Gospel is quoted in 2 Clement!
"For the Lord himself, being asked when the kingdom would come, replied, ‘When two shall be one, that which is without as that which is within, and the male with the female, neither male nor female’" (2 Clement 12).

This is clearly a quote from the Gospel of Thomas, saying 22...

2 Clement is considered an orthodox work; however, no reputable scholar has ever considered it to be actually written by Clement, not even Eusebius, who makes the first mention of it in A.D. 323. In style, it is nothing like 1 Clement. It is only called 2 Clement because the 5th century Alexandrian manuscript includes it with 1 Clement as "the epistles of Clement."

Despite the fact that no one believes Clement authored it, it's universally considered orthodox.
...
2 Clement is usually given a date from A.D. 140-160, specifically because of this quote.

No Christian writer before Eusebius in A.D. 323 makes reference to 2 Clement; however, the reason for dating it to c. A.D. 150 is that it quotes words of Jesus from something other than the four Gospels. That would have been unacceptable in an orthodox work, especially a sermon like Second Clement, anytime after the late 2nd century.

Of course, if 2 Clement is from A.D. 150 and it cites the Gospel of Thomas, then the Gospel of Thomas is at least that old.

Interestingly enough, Clement of Alexandria quotes the same words and attributes them to an apocryphal and unknown "Gospel of the Egyptians," which he does not regard as authoritative. The Gospel of Thomas has been found in Coptic (Egyptian) and Greek. Is it an Egyptian Gospel? If so, it's almost certainly Alexandrian, the intellectual center of Egypt, which would explain Clement of Alexandria would be quoting it.
http://www.christian-history.org/gospel ... mas-2.html

Alternately, do you think maybe 2 Clement could actually be written by Clement Alexandrine, with there being confusion over which Clement was meant?

Tuckett reasons 2 Clement must be after the 1st c.:
traces of the redactional work of both Matthew and Luke are visible [in 2 Clement's citings of Jesus]... The author is thus at a point in the development of at least the synoptic tradition that post dates the present synoptic gospels. A date after the end of the first century thus seems most likely.
https://books.google.com/books?id=TE4-T ... 3&lpg=PA63&dq=%22Second+Clement%22+OR+%222+clement%22+date+OR+dating&source=bl&ots=ISeGktgZpG&sig=V6HL6ZueKVPY20Ga5tilLon-W2g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnlvqDrO3RAhUC4yYKHZvlBtYQ6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=%22Second%20Clement%22%20OR%20%222%20clement%22%20date%20OR%20dating&f=false

The thing is, he says "most" likely, and also his theory is that the synoptics were completed at the end of the first c. or later. How do we know that those traces Tuckett refers to were put in at the end of the first c. or later?
It seems that this is not a strong enough basis to put the definite starting point as after 100 AD.

Donfried writes in The Setting of 2 Clement that Grant and Graham
"suggest that 2 Clement was written in ROme during the time of Hyginus 136-140, but Grant himself admits that this is a wild hypothesis. ... Lightfoot holds 2 Clement to be a homily written about 120 or earlier...
Donfried suggests it could have been written even before 1 Clement.
2 Clement represents a very early stage in the total process which eventually leads to the formation of a New Testament canon. As we will show, 2 Clement is still largely dependent on an oral, as opposed to a written, gospel tradition. Further 2 Clement shares a number of themes and expressions with Valentinian gnosticism; however these are clearly a part of a gnosticisng trajectory which lead to Valentinian gnosticism, but which are not yet a part...
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ham9C ... ng&f=false

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:12 am

What are the oldest liturgies? Do we have anything from close to the 1st century? I heard of:

Liturgy of Addai and Mari, and liturgies of: St. James, St. Mark, St. Hippolytus, and the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:29 am

rakovsky wrote:What are the oldest liturgies? Do we have anything from close to the 1st century? I heard of:

Liturgy of Addai and Mari, and liturgies of: St. James, St. Mark, St. Hippolytus, and the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles.
many of these are late in their present form. The Liturgy of Addai and Mari probably goes back to a very early liturgy although in its present form it is later.

The Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus is probably in its original form c 200 CE but has to be reconstructed from much later translations.

James and Mark are post-Nicene the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles in anything like its present form is post-Nicene but probably uses some very ancient prayers.

A general problem with using early liturgies is that it is very hard to confidently reconstruct the original text.

Andrew Criddle

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:19 pm

I found LIVES OF THE PROPHETS online here:
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/live ... orrey.html

The URL can be added to the EW database because no online text is linked on the page for LIVES OF THE PROPHETS on EW.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:21 pm

rakovsky wrote:I found LIVES OF THE PROPHETS online here:
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/live ... orrey.html
The Greek is here: http://ocp.tyndale.ca/docs/text/LivPro.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by DCHindley » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:33 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
rakovsky wrote:I found LIVES OF THE PROPHETS online here:
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/live ... orrey.html
The Greek is here: http://ocp.tyndale.ca/docs/text/LivPro.
Well,

Thanky Danky!!

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:10 pm

This site has a lot of pseudigraphic materials in case you have trouble finding them.
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/Bib ... /NTA&P.htm

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:12 pm

James (like the ANti-Nicene Fathers book) originally gave a short version of APOCALYPSE OF SEDRACH as if it was full, but it was missing a multi-verse introduction on love.

The full version is found in Charlesworth's book, p. 609:
https://books.google.com/books?id=TNdeo ... an&f=false

I think the editor James was mistaken to remove the Christian introduction sermon on the basis that it was a later insertion. The theme of love runs throughout both the introduction and Contents so that it forms a whole. It feels like a Christian writing and we know that Christians did make compositions on Old Testament themes and settings.

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