Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWebsite

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rakovsky
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:10 pm

How about considering for inclusion the Birkat Ha Minim, supposedly written in the first century AD by Shmuel ha-Katan and especially directed at Christians?
The Council of Jamnia, presumably held in Yavneh in the Holy Land, was a hypothetical late 1st-century council... which may... have been the occasion when the Jewish authorities decided to exclude believers in Jesus as the Messiah from synagogue attendance... The writing of the Birkat ha-Minim benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion.[1] It is the 12th of the Eighteen Benedictions or Amidah.

According to the Babylonian Talmud Tractate Berakhot 28b–29a, Shmuel ha-Katan was responsible for the writing of the Birkat haMinim:

"Rabban Gamaliel said to the sages: Is there no one who knows how to compose a benediction against the minim? Samuel Ha-Qatan stood up and composed it."[4]

The blessing exists in various forms.[5][6] Two medieval Cairo Genizah copies include references to both minim and Notzrim ("Nazarenes", i.e. "Christians").[7][8][9]

"For the apostates let there be no hope. And let the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days. Let the noẓerim and the minim be destroyed in a moment. And let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not be inscribed together with the righteous. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who humblest the arrogant" (Schechter)."

The extent of reference to Notzrim, or application of minim to Christians is debated.[11][12] In his analysis of various scholarly views on the Birkat haMinim, Pieter W. van der Horst sums up,

"It is certain that minim in Tannaitic times are always Jews... It is certain that notsrim was not a part of the earliest version(s) of our berakhah."[13]

During the medieval period, whether the birkat included Christians or not was the subject of disputations, a potential cause for persecution and thus a matter relevant for the safety of Jewish communities.[14] It is generally viewed in modern studies that the term "heretics" at an early point in split of early Christianity and Judaism had included Jewish Christians.[15][16][17][18] It was David Flusser's view (1992) that the Birkat haMinim was added in reference to the Sadducees.[19]

Many scholars have seen reference to the Birkat haMinim in Justin Martyr's complaint to Trypho of the Jews "cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ." Reuven Kimelman (1981) challenged this, noting that Justin's description places the curse in the wrong sequence in the synagogue service.
===========================================================================================================


7. Rashi on BT Megillah 17b: "The minim are disciples of Jesus the Notzri which is why they put Birkat haMinim ..."

8. Marvin R. Wilson, Our father Abraham: Jewish roots of the Christian Faith, Wm. B. Eerdmans: 1989, p.68 "We must emphasize that only two texts of the Birkat ha-Minim (both found in the Cairo Genizah) explicitly mention Christians. Both texts refer to "the Christians [notzrim, ie, the Nazarenes] and the heretics / minim]. "

9. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz (eds.) The Cambridge History of Judaism: The late Roman-Rabbinic period 2006, p.291 "He (Gedaliah Alon) proposes that the original Yavnean version of the Birkat ha-Minim, following the medieval Genizah fragment, included both minim and 'Nazarenes,' and that 'in this liturgical fragment minim and Notzrim are synonymous, ie, that both refer to the Jewish Christians.' But Alon's 'assumption' about the form of the original version is unconvincing, and this not least because, if the terms minim and Notzrim are synonymous, there would be no need for both of them in the benediction. Thus, as already argued, it appears more reasonable to suspect that Notzrim was added to a pre-existing malediction after the period of Yavneh – and most likely after the Bar Kochba Revolt (or later)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

I think Justin Martyr's (100-- 155 AD) reference to cursing Christians in the synagogues sounds relevant to the question of the Birkat Ha-Minim's original form or direction, especially if the "Birkat" was composed during the first c. AD when divisions between Jewish Christians and the rabbis was forming.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by iskander » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:18 am

rakovsky wrote:How about considering for inclusion the Birkat Ha Minim, supposedly written in the first century AD by Shmuel ha-Katan and especially directed at Christians?
The Council of Jamnia, presumably held in Yavneh in the Holy Land, was a hypothetical late 1st-century council... which may... have been the occasion when the Jewish authorities decided to exclude believers in Jesus as the Messiah from synagogue attendance... The writing of the Birkat ha-Minim benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion.[1] It is the 12th of the Eighteen Benedictions or Amidah.

According to the Babylonian Talmud Tractate Berakhot 28b–29a, Shmuel ha-Katan was responsible for the writing of the Birkat haMinim:

"Rabban Gamaliel said to the sages: Is there no one who knows how to compose a benediction against the minim? Samuel Ha-Qatan stood up and composed it."[4]

The blessing exists in various forms.[5][6] Two medieval Cairo Genizah copies include references to both minim and Notzrim ("Nazarenes", i.e. "Christians").[7][8][9]

"For the apostates let there be no hope. And let the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days. Let the noẓerim and the minim be destroyed in a moment. And let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not be inscribed together with the righteous. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who humblest the arrogant" (Schechter)."

The extent of reference to Notzrim, or application of minim to Christians is debated.[11][12] In his analysis of various scholarly views on the Birkat haMinim, Pieter W. van der Horst sums up,

"It is certain that minim in Tannaitic times are always Jews... It is certain that notsrim was not a part of the earliest version(s) of our berakhah."[13]

During the medieval period, whether the birkat included Christians or not was the subject of disputations, a potential cause for persecution and thus a matter relevant for the safety of Jewish communities.[14] It is generally viewed in modern studies that the term "heretics" at an early point in split of early Christianity and Judaism had included Jewish Christians.[15][16][17][18] It was David Flusser's view (1992) that the Birkat haMinim was added in reference to the Sadducees.[19]

Many scholars have seen reference to the Birkat haMinim in Justin Martyr's complaint to Trypho of the Jews "cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ." Reuven Kimelman (1981) challenged this, noting that Justin's description places the curse in the wrong sequence in the synagogue service.
===========================================================================================================


7. Rashi on BT Megillah 17b: "The minim are disciples of Jesus the Notzri which is why they put Birkat haMinim ..."

8. Marvin R. Wilson, Our father Abraham: Jewish roots of the Christian Faith, Wm. B. Eerdmans: 1989, p.68 "We must emphasize that only two texts of the Birkat ha-Minim (both found in the Cairo Genizah) explicitly mention Christians. Both texts refer to "the Christians [notzrim, ie, the Nazarenes] and the heretics / minim]. "

9. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz (eds.) The Cambridge History of Judaism: The late Roman-Rabbinic period 2006, p.291 "He (Gedaliah Alon) proposes that the original Yavnean version of the Birkat ha-Minim, following the medieval Genizah fragment, included both minim and 'Nazarenes,' and that 'in this liturgical fragment minim and Notzrim are synonymous, ie, that both refer to the Jewish Christians.' But Alon's 'assumption' about the form of the original version is unconvincing, and this not least because, if the terms minim and Notzrim are synonymous, there would be no need for both of them in the benediction. Thus, as already argued, it appears more reasonable to suspect that Notzrim was added to a pre-existing malediction after the period of Yavneh – and most likely after the Bar Kochba Revolt (or later)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

I think Justin Martyr's (100-- 155 AD) reference to cursing Christians in the synagogues sounds relevant to the question of the Birkat Ha-Minim's original form or direction, especially if the "Birkat" was composed during the first c. AD when divisions between Jewish Christians and the rabbis was forming.
Thanks for this informative thread. :)

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:48 am

How about including "Pseudo Abdias"?
Pseudo-Abdias is the name formerly given to a collection of New Testament Apocrypha held by the Bibliothèque nationale de France and consisting of Latin translations in ten books containing several chapters. Each book describes the life of one of the Apostles.

In Lazius' edition (Basel, 1552), the introduction to the Pseudo-Abdias is allegedly written by Sextus Julius Africanus who claimed the originals were written by Abdias of Babylon who was allegedly consecrated by Saint Simon and personally knew some of the Apostles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Abdias
Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240) was a Christian traveler and historian of the late second and early third centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Julius_Africanus

The reason I bring this up is that Pseudo-Abdias came up when I was reviewing info on the Gospel of the Hebrews. Pseudo-Africanus and G.Hebrews both relate a story where Jesus appears to one of the Jameses and eats with them, after the James had been fasting since Jesus' death.
Of those James the lesser by birth was always first beloved by Christ the savior and in turn burned with such desire for the master that after he was crucified he wished not to take food until he saw him rising from the dead, which he and his brothers remembered was predicted while he was active among the living. Therefore, he wished first of all to appear to him and to both Mary Magdalene and Peter to confirm the disciple in faith and not to allow him to suffer from fasting any longer, and he offered him a honeycomb and invited James to eat.
~Pseudo-Abdias, Apostolic Histories 6.1:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1855

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:48 am

There is also the pagan inscription about the Christian Alexamenos from the 3rd c.:
http://www.textexcavation.com/alexamenos.html

I think asses(the animal) were seen as an object of worship by ancient Canaanites, weren't they?

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:57 am

Consider adding Epictetus, early century II, Dissertations 4.7.5-6
Some say that the nonmaterialistic "Galileans" refers to Christians, since Julian later titled the Christians officially "Galileans".
http://www.textexcavation.com/testimonia.html

Text Excavation writes why he considers Secret Mark a Forgery:
http://www.textexcavation.com/secretmark.html

Not sure about adding Seneca on Anger 1.2.2:
* In his De Ira (I.2) Seneca lists six great men of the past who aspired to royalty but came to an evil end, the last being condemned to have his limbs split asunder upon a cross. The context indicates that this unnamed individual was of foreign nationality, and that his death occurred later than that of Pompey--hence within living memory. See Léon Herrmann, Chrestos (Brussels, 1970), p[ages] 41-43.

Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on] for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched upon the cross.


[other candidates for whom Seneca meant:]
Crucified: Gavius by Verres, or Hannibal (a Carthaginian general, but not the famous Hannibal Barca) by his own men.
http://www.textexcavation.com/seneca.html

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:31 am

Early writings about Christians are not the same as early Christian writings, are they?
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:20 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:Early writings about Christians are not the same as early Christian writings, are they?
No, they are not.
The Early Christian Writings list has numerous nonChristians writings about Christianity, like Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny Younger, Mara Bar Serapion, Celsus. CLICK HERE TO OPEN: http://earlychristianwritings.com/

So in the OP of this thread, I made a section called:
Pagans writing on Christianity

And included 4 potential 1st c. writers alleged to write about Christian events.

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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Peter Kirby » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:53 pm

rakovsky wrote:Consider adding Epictetus, early century II, Dissertations 4.7.5-6
Some say that the nonmaterialistic "Galileans" refers to Christians, since Julian later titled the Christians officially "Galileans".
http://www.textexcavation.com/testimonia.html
I have intended to add Epictetus for his remarks about Galileans and Pliny the Elder for his remarks about the tetrarchy of the Nazareans (or however it's spelled). I just need to get around to it.

Thanks for collecting these things in this thread.
There is also the pagan inscription about the Christian Alexamenos from the 3rd c.:
http://www.textexcavation.com/alexamenos.html
Not the only missing inscription. There's only one inscription right now on the site. There's a good collection of inscriptions linked in the stickied thread at this forum (which I compiled), which I should eventually import into the website also.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by Peter Kirby » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:00 pm

rakovsky wrote:How about including "Pseudo Abdias"?
Post-Nicene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdias_of_Babylon
The most obvious clues include the book's citations of the Vulgate of St Jerome, of the Ecclesiastical History of Rufinus and of his Latin translation of the Recognitiones of Clement.
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Re: Wiki EarlyChristian writings Missing from our Forum'sWeb

Post by rakovsky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:02 pm

Peter Kirby wrote:
rakovsky wrote:How about including "Pseudo Abdias"?
Post-Nicene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdias_of_Babylon
The most obvious clues include the book's citations of the Vulgate of St Jerome, of the Ecclesiastical History of Rufinus and of his Latin translation of the Recognitiones of Clement.
Good catch.

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