While by my sheep I watched at night

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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While by my sheep I watched at night

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

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Luke 2:12
And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
It may be fine that the coming shepherd of all people is lying in a manger.

But what is with this “wrapped in swaddling clothes”. Is there a spiritual meaning for this? :angel:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: While by my sheep I watched at night

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
That could be interesting.

Thomas E. Phillips, “Why Did Mary Wrap the Newborn Jesus in 'Swaddling Clothes'?
First, the Lukan reference to Jesus being wrapped in ‘swaddling clothes’ may stand within a rich literary tradition surrounding the family of the gods. Second, when Luke’s reference is read against this ancient literary background, it likely draws upon this tradition to highlight Jesus’ divine origin… sparganów does not appear frequently in extant pre-first-century Greek literature. In fact, just two documents, Euripides’ Ion and the Homeric Hymn to Hermes, account for nearly one fourth of all extant occurrences of the word before the first century. Each document uses the term six times… The references within these texts are important for two reasons. First, no other extant pre-first-century text uses this term as frequently as do these two well-known texts. Second, the references to swaddling clothes in each of these texts help a divine son to establish his place within the divine family… Each tale appears repeatedly in ancient literature … [e.g., Hesiod’s Theogony and Pindar’s Odes]…Given the extensive symbolic use of swaddling clothes in myth, hymn, drama and poetry before the first century, it seems culturally appropriate to interpret the Lukan ‘sign’ of the swaddling clothes against the background of the literary motif of a divine son establishing his place within the divine family.
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JoeWallack
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Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Luke 2

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son; and she wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Wisdom of Solomon
7...[4] I was nursed with care in swaddling cloths.
[5] For no king has had a different beginning of existence;
JW:
In Brown's classic Birth this is the only parallel he points out to "swaddling clothes." It does look like an anti Marcion touch but the Pagan parallels above are exponentially better. As a Catholic Priest apparently Brown was capable of confessing everything except the superior parallels between the Infancy Narratives and Pagan superstition.

Speaking of quality Pagan parallels to the Infancy Narratives, KK, did you ever look at Helmut Brunner's Die Gebert Des Gottkoenigs?


Joseph

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:Speaking of quality Pagan parallels to the Infancy Narratives, KK, did you ever look at Helmut Brunner's Die Gebert Des Gottkoenigs
No, but there is a good German review online. It's a book about the birth of Pharao as a son of God in Egyptian mythology. One of the big differences between the Egyptian myth and Luke's story is "real sex", one similarity the role of a messenger (Toth and Gabriel) and the warm reception by the mother (the Egyptian queen and Mary).
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Re: Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:It does look like an anti Marcion touch but the Pagan parallels above are exponentially better. As a Catholic Priest apparently Brown was capable of confessing everything except the superior parallels between the Infancy Narratives and Pagan superstition.
My impression is that Matthew’s and John’s conceptions of Jesus’ sonship are also influenced by hellenistic ideas, but that contrary to them, Luke had a critical awareness of what he did.

The supernatural birth of John the Baptist follows a traditional Jewish model. Elisabeth is a new Hannah and a new Sarah.

I tend to think that Luke used for Jesus’ birth a more Hellenistic or Pagan model to show the beginning of a new time with the ingathering of the Gentiles.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I tend to think that Luke used for Jesus’ birth a more Hellenistic or Pagan model to show the beginning of a new time with the ingathering of the Gentiles.
Or, to my mind, also to make the story all the more relatable to gentile readers (which could easily go hand-in-hand with marking the "times of the gentiles" as you are suggesting). Storytellers do that kind of thing all the time: change or devise the setting, the symbolism, or the points of cultural contact in such a way as to let the readers more closely identify with the story.
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outhouse
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Re: While by my sheep I watched at night

Post by outhouse »

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.


Maybe a little plagiarized ? describes Israel as unswaddled, a metaphor for abandonment.
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Re: While by my sheep I watched at night

Post by outhouse »

Wisdom of Solomon 7

And when I was born, I began to breathe the common air, and fell upon the kindred earth, and my first sound was a cry, like that of all. 4 I was nursed with care in swaddling cloths. 5 For no king has had a different beginning of existence;



I love your guys imagination, please keep me entertained.
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Re: Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by outhouse »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
I tend to think that Luke used for Jesus’ birth a more Hellenistic or Pagan model to show the beginning of a new time with the ingathering of the Gentiles.

Not in this context

Has a lot to do with Davidic lineage Luke sells and is strong with messianic heritage. His birth has quite the Davidic theme going on, and Solomon, the first son of David, was also known for such humility. The son of David goes on to describe how, even though he is the greatest of all the kings of the earth, he was born like all others:

Plagiarized from sacred text page to some extent :lol:
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