When/what is the End of Days?

[outhouse]

Just to be clear in context, I'm not poo pooing your idea as much as expressing caution.

[John2]

Some have claimed these are Sadducees, and we have Sectarian theories as well as the "Qumran–Essene" hypothesis you follow.

I'm actually more inclined to see the DSS sect as the Fourth Philosophy and see Jewish Christians as stemming from that and ultimately being a conglomeration of people from all the sects. This would explain the varying DSS biblical texts, for example.

[John2]

Regarding gentile Torah observance, in the big picture no one, Jew or gentile, can observe all of the Torah outside of Israel, because certain things only apply there, such as sacrifices (and the attendant ritual purity laws) and laws tied to agriculture. The Babylonian Talmud has no gemara for the agricultural tractates of the Mishnah while the Jerusalem Talmud does, for example. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that just isn't relevant to anyone living outside of Israel. That's a "load" off in and of itself.

What's left after that anyway? Be nice to people? Be circumcised? Wear fringes with a blue cord and clothes without mixed materials? Don't worship other gods? I don't see what the big deal is.

[Ben C. Smith]

Regarding gentile Torah observance, in the big picture no one, Jew or gentile, can observe all of the Torah outside of Israel, because certain things only apply there, such as sacrifices (and the attendant ritual purity laws) and laws tied to agriculture. The Babylonian Talmud has no gemara for the agricultural tractates of the Mishnah while the Jerusalem Talmud does, for example. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that just isn't relevant to anyone living outside of Israel. That's a "load" off in and of itself.

What's left after that anyway? Be nice to people? Be circumcised? Wear fringes with a blue cord and clothes without mixed materials? Don't worship other gods? I don't see what the big deal is.

I think the food laws were definitely a big deal. So was circumcision.

[John2]

Versus having to do "everything," but I get what you mean (but still don't personally see it as a big deal).

[Secret Alias]

I've mentioned it thousands of times before. Only ten utterances came from heaven. The rest came from man (Moses). This is likely where Paul began. No circumcision in the ten. Clement tells us that "do not lust" was voiced with special emphasis by Jesus. The context seems to be the ten but something more than the ten. Jesus was the god who gave the ten. Clement and the rest emphasize this against the caricature of Marcion. But did the Marcionites really deny this? I think this was universally understood. People forget there were two giving of the ten. The first time the Israelites saw god (Jesus). The second time was a lower revelation

[Ben C. Smith]

Versus having to do "everything," but I get what you mean (but still don't personally see it as a big deal).

The ancients apparently did. 1 Maccabees 1.11-15:

11 In those days lawless men came forth from Israel, and misled many, saying, "Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles round about us, for since we separated from them many evils have come upon us." 12 This proposal pleased them, 13 and some of the people eagerly went to the king. He authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, 15 and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil.

If even Jews were abandoning Jewish traditions, surely there must have been pressure for many Jews to make things easier for gentiles.

Josephus, Against Apion 1.22 §205-212:

When Agatharehides had premised this story, and had jested upon Stratonice for her superstition, he gives a like example of what was reported concerning us, and writes thus: "There are a people called Jews, and dwell in a city the strongest of all other cities, which the inhabitants call Jerusalem, and are accustomed to rest on every seventh day on which times they make no use of their arms, nor meddle with husbandry, nor take care of any affairs of life, but spread out their hands in their holy places, and pray till the evening. Now it came to pass, that when Ptolemy, the son of Lagus, came into this city with his army, that these men, in observing this mad custom of theirs, instead of guarding the city, suffered their country to submit itself to a bitter lord; and their law was openly proved to have commanded a foolish practice. This accident taught all other men but the Jews to disregard such dreams as these were, and not to follow the like idle suggestions delivered as a law, when, in such uncertainty of human reasonings, they are at a loss what they should do." Now this our procedure seems a ridiculous thing to Agatharehides, but will appear to such as consider it without prejudice a great thing, and what deserved a great many encomiums; I mean, when certain men constantly prefer the observation of their laws, and their religion towards God, before the preservation of themselves and their country.

Josephus, Against Apion 2.14 §137:

As to the other things which [Apion] sets down as blame worthy, it may perhaps be the best way to let them pass, without any apology; that he may be allowed to be his own accuser, and the accuser of the rest of the Egyptians. However he accuses us for sacrificing animals; and for abstaining from swines flesh: and laughs at us for the circumcision of our privy members.

Philo, Special Laws 1.1.1-2:

We must now proceed to consider the particular commands as we read them in the subsequent passages of the holy scriptures; and we will begin with that which is turned into ridicule by people in general. The ordinance of circumcision of the parts of generation is ridiculed....

A lot of people will not care about this kind of cultural pressure, but a lot of people will care, too.

Juvenal, Satires 14.95-106:

Then there are those that, blessed with a father who
Reveres the Sabbath, worship only the clouds in the sky
And its spirit, who draw no distinction between the pork
From which their father had to abstain, and human flesh,
And who swiftly rid themselves of even their foreskins.
It’s their custom to ignore the laws of Rome, the Judaic
Code being that which they study, adhere to, and revere;
The Pentateuch, the mystic scroll handed down by Moses:
Nor do they reveal the way to anyone but a fellow-believer;
Leading only the circumcised, when asked, to the fountain.
It’s the father that’s to blame, treating every seventh day
As a day of idleness, separate from the rest of daily life.

So even the Sabbath ordinance, which seems innocuous enough, comes in for ridicule.

Epistle to Diognetus 4.1:

But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,--I do not think that you require to learn anything from me.

[John2]

The ancients apparently did.

Yes, I understand that.

[John2]

outhouse wrote:

Some have claimed these are Sadducees...

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead and the DSS writings do. Sadducees also did not believe in angels (at least according to Acts 23:8), and the DSS writings do.

The Sadducees were also said to be from wealthy classes and the DSS champion the poor (and Josephus says that the common people sided with the Pharisees).

And as Davilla points out (and bearing in mind that Paul had once been a Pharisee), the DSS have parallels with Rabbinic Hekhalot literature.

Morray-Jones has also argued for extensive parallels between the Hekhalot literature and the writings of the Apostle Paul. And other connections with the literature of the Second Temple period are worth noting. The Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice, the Berakhot, and the Songs of the Sage among the Dead Sea Scrolls have many parallels in terminology, scriptural exegesis, and general interest to the Hekhalot literature.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z1-xM ... la&f=false

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article ... iterature/

And as White notes here:

Rabbinic interpretations often come to our aid for they are a development of the same exegetical tradition of which the Dead Sea Scrolls are an early offshoot. Despite the fact that the Rabbis and the sectarians differed in their immediate concerns and in the application of their biblical text there is a great deal of similarity between them. Not infrequently a comment in one of the scrolls is identical to a later rabbinic comment, even one made a millennium or more later.

https://books.google.com/books?id=N3OtA ... te&f=false

[outhouse]

Can you explain this below ?

Qumran–Sadducean theory

A specific variation on the Qumran–Sectarian theory that has gained much recent popularity is the work of Lawrence H. Schiffman, who proposes that the community was led by a group of Zadokite priests (Sadducees).[40] The most important document in support of this view is the "Miqsat Ma'ase Ha-Torah" (4QMMT), which cites purity laws (such as the transfer of impurities) identical to those attributed in rabbinic writings to the Sadducees. 4QMMT also reproduces a festival calendar that follows Sadducee principles for the dating of certain festival days.