When/what is the End of Days?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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outhouse
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by outhouse »

John2 wrote:The sect also included gentile converts

That will never be substantiated.

While Hellenism permeated Judaism as a whole, many Israelite Jews were not accepting, and nothing supports this sect doing such.


If anything just the opposite
iskander
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by iskander »

John2 wrote:Charlesworth, for example, notes:
From a sociological perspective, the Damascus Document reflects the existence of people having a different way of life from the rest of the Jewish population, but not completely isolated from the common social and religious institutions of Israel. Echoing the language of the Temple Scroll and 4QMMT [4Q394-399], the Damascus Document speaks of people living in the "city of the Temple" (CD 12.1-2) or in "the camp" (10.23), as well as living in "the cities of Israel" (12.19) or in the "camps" (7.6; 19.2), people who "take women and beget children" (7.6-7; cf. 12.1-2; 15.5-6) and are "owners" of properties (9.10-16), have a job and earn a salary (14.12-17), and attend the Temple in Jerusalem and offer sacrifices (12.17-21; 16.13-14).

https://books.google.com/books?id=TmVYV ... on&f=false
What was the End of Days? (E of D)
Apparently, the E of D is the beginning of a better commonwealth following the end of the old one.
" Hosea, Amos or Isaiah know only a single world, in which even the great events at the E of D run their course. it is about the re-establishment of the House of David and the future glory of an Israel returned to God.

In contrast in the doctrine of the two aeons speaks of this world and the world to come, the reign of darkness and the world of light, the final struggle between Israel and the heathens .There arise the conception of the Resurrection of the Dead, of reward and punishment in the Last Judgement, and of Paradise and Hell.

The words of the prophets, which in their original context appear so clear and direct, henceforth become riddles, allegories and mysteries which are interpreted by an apocalyptic homiletic or an original apocalyptic vision. And thus we have the framework in which the Messianic idea now begins its historical influence ."
Extracted from the book, The messianic idea in Judaism, by Gershom Scholem
Page 6.
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~akantor/read ... udaism.pdf
John2
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

outhouse wrote (re: gentiles in the DSS sect):
That will never be substantiated.
For the most part the DSS are hostile towards gentiles. But in the Damascus Document (which mentions the new covenant) the situation is different. As Himmelfarb notes:
We have already seen that Jubilees rejects the possibility of conversion ... of the ger [foreigner]; similarly 4QFlorilegium prohibits the ger along with a series of foreigners from entering its eschatological temple (4Q174 I 3-4). The presence of the ger among the members of the sect shows that for the Damascus Document, in contrast, gentiles were not so essentially different from Jews that it was impossible to cross the boundary."

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZgYAx ... nt&f=false
This is similar to the situation in Christianity. As Acts 10:28 puts it, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."

But the window would only be open for a little bit, according to the Damascus Document.

"And until the age is completed, according to the number of those years, all who enter after them shall do according to that interpretation of the Law in which the first were instructed. According to the Covenant which God made with the forefathers, forgiving their sins, so shall He forgive their sins also. But when the age is completed, according to the number of those years, there shall be no more joining the house of Judah, but each man shall stand on his watchtower."

As Harrington notes:
It is important to recognize that the Damascus Document is the only scroll to truly accept the ger at all ... Gentiles are not neutral; their idolatry makes them impure and contaminating. Nevertheless, presumably after an initiation and purification process, they can be included among the ger category of the sect.

https://books.google.com/books?id=o26q1 ... nt&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
outhouse
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by outhouse »

John2 wrote:Damascus Document.
Really is of no help being text that evolved, if anything it shows a possibility of two different groups within the evolution of the text found with the DSS.

You have text originally called Zadokite in nature giving plausibility to a Sadduccean connection.

Remember this predates DSS
iskander
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by iskander »

John2 wrote:To be honest, I don't like apocalyptic writings or thinking (even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I otherwise enjoy). But Rakovsky's got me thinking about the nature of the "End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim). And when I think of the End of Days I think of things like Is. 2:2-4:
In the last days [acharit ha-yamim] the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law [Torah] will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."
I was familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls before the New Testament, so the idea of a suffering Messiah figure or community members atoning for sins seems like a non-issue to me (and I also appreciate the elements of this in Rabbinic Judaism).

This concept is expressed in 1QS (the Community Rule) col. 8 and 4Q541, for examples.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ew50B ... nt&f=false

So if there are elements (or "signs") of this kind of thing in the OT, or even if they are only imagined to be there, fine.

The DSS sect viewed the Temple as being polluted so they atoned for sins in a different way while waiting for the Temple to be purified or a new one could be built in its stead (or perhaps by performing their rituals in a different location of the Temple, like Josephus says of the Essenes). Acts 21 also presents Christians as performing sacrifices in the Temple after Jesus' death.

So let's say Jesus' crucifixion atoned for sins. I don't understand how or why that would nullify the observance of the Torah. I don't get this impression at all from End Time prophecies in the OT (like Is. 2:2-4 above, which says that the Torah will go out from Zion).

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but it seems "crazy" to me that the Torah or the OT could be valued for having messages (whether "hidden" or in the plain meaning) about the End Time and a suffering Messiah in a way that nullifies the observance of the Torah. As Dt. 4:30 puts it:

"When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days [acharit ha-yamim] you will return to the Lord your God and obey him," and the overwhelming impression I get from the rest of Deuteronomy is that this means to observe everything in the Torah forever and without adding to or taking anything away from it.

Can someone explain how this works for me by using the OT in a way that doesn't sound "crazy"?
John2 wrote:I don't understand how or why that would nullify the observance of the Torah.
Freedom to choose
Christianity conceives redemption as an event in the spiritual and unseen realm, an event which is reflected in the soul, in the private world of each individual, and which effects an inner transformation which need not correspond to anything outside.
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~akantor/read ... udaism.pdf
page 1
Judaism conceives redemption as an event in the physical world , an event which is reflected in the political ethos, in the public world of the community, and which effects an inner transformation which needs to replicate the ideal kingdom of the past.


Christianity makes men and women free from the yoke of the Torah. These free people activate their freedom to choose new forms of public life without any hindrance from the past.In Judaism the birth pangs of a catastrophic revolution brings back to life the ancient regime as an invigorated ' ectroma '. The direction of the Christian redemption is west of east; only the ten utterances came from God.
John2
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

outhouse wrote:
Really is of no help being text that evolved, if anything it shows a possibility of two different groups within the evolution of the text found with the DSS.
Do you think there could have been no evolution in the Fourth Philosophy over the 70 years that it existed? Doesn't Acts say that such an evolution happened in Christianity during the first century CE?
You have text originally called Zadokite in nature giving plausibility to a Sadduccean connection.
The Sadducees did not have a monopoly on the name Zadok or the concepts of righteousness (zedakah) or Righteous Ones (Zadiks). One of the founders of the Fourth Philosophy was named Zadok, after all, and he was a Pharisee. James was called a Zadik; was he therefore a Sadducee? Zadiks are revered in Rabbinic Judaism to this day. And the Damascus Document interprets Ezekiel's sons of Zadok esoterically (and in a way that plausibly includes gentiles).
Remember this predates DSS
People and concepts mentioned in the Cairo Damascus Document (CD) are also mentioned in the DSS (e.g., the Teacher of Righteousness, the Liar, and the New Covenant), and parts of the Damascus Document were found among the DSS.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

Look at how much the concept of righteousness plays a part in Christianity (while bearing in mind that Paul was a former Pharisee):

"For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith" (Rom. 1:17).

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith" (Rom. 9:30).

"That I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Php. 3:8-9).

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 5:20).

So since Christians talked with a "Zadokite" language, does that mean they were Sadducees?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
outhouse
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by outhouse »

John2 wrote: Do you think there could have been no evolution in the Fourth Philosophy over the 70 years that it existed?
.
How much do you think the religion changed and when did it change? but most of all, why did it change?

70 years is way to narrow and just unsubstantiated , these beliefs and practices could have taken place for a few hundreds years. The volume of text we have suggest longer then 70

Doesn't Acts say that such an evolution happened to its sect during the first century CE?
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/essenes/


Despite the fact that no reference to the Essenes can be found in the Gospels or the Acts, at all events under that name, there can be no doubt of their existence
John2
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

outhouse wrote:
How much do you think the religion changed and when did it change? but most of all, why did it change?

70 years is way to narrow and just unsubstantiated , these beliefs and practices could have taken place for a few hundreds years. The volume of text we have suggest longer then 70
You can ask the same questions about Christianity. How much did the DSS sect change? From not including gentiles at all to including them in some fashion. The transition is summed up neatly enough in Acts 10:28: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."

Before this happened, wouldn't Peter have lived in a culture or used writings that supported (or did not disabuse the notion, or were interpreted to mean that) Jews should not associate with or visit gentiles? And how much of this literary/cultural "baggage" do you suppose he would have had access to versus whatever was written about this issue during the first 70 years of Christianity? I imagine the situation would have been similar to the DSS in the way that Harrington noted:
It is important to recognize that the Damascus Document is the only scroll to truly accept the ger at all.

https://books.google.com/books?id=o26q1 ... nt&f=false
Why the change? In addition to their belief that the end time was near (and perhaps also the need for more recruits), perhaps it had something to do with the new covenant (which is only mentioned in the Damascus Document and maybe one other writing that mentions the Teacher of Righteousness). Everything in the Damascus Document (broadly speaking) is "new," like Josephus says about the doctrines of the Fourth Philosophy, "which we were before unacquainted withal" (Ant. 18.1.1.); this is why he often calls the latter "innovators" and speaks of their "innovations."

An example of one of these first century CE "innovations" is the issue of gentile sacrifice:

"At the same time Eleazar, the son of Ananias the high priest, a very bold youth, who was at that time governor of the temple, persuaded those that officiated in the Divine service to receive no gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account; and when many of the high priests and principal men besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which it was customary for them to offer for their princes, they would not be prevailed upon. These relied much upon their multitude, for the most flourishing part of the innovators assisted them; but they had the chief regard to Eleazar, the governor of the temple" (War 2.17.2).

This issue may also be discussed in 4QMMT. I tend to stay away from making too much of fragmentary Scrolls that require a lot of reconstruction, but Vermes and Eisenman and Wise reconstruct and translate it with this sense.

"And concerning the sacrifices of Gentiles ... [we consider that] they {sacrifice} to [an idol and] that is [like] a woman fornicating with him."

https://books.google.com/books?id=hDuyz ... ls&f=false

"Concerning sacrifices by Gentiles, [we say that (in reality) they] sacrifice to the i[dol] that seduces them; (therefore it is illicit)."

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scrol ... d06.htm#35
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
outhouse
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Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by outhouse »

John2 wrote: Jews should not associate with or visit gentiles?
Maybe you misunderstand first century Judaism.

Jews were exploited by Hellenism and the whole reason the temple was built was not for oppressed Jews to enjoy their faith.

The temple was created to bring Judaism light to the roman world to generate more money for Rome, this was built by Herod to open up Judaism to the world.

Judaism was so perverted in the first century, it does not matter what the text of Judaism stated, the one god concept IS what was popular and there was literally thousands of ways to follow and many had no real adherence to customs or traditions or laws, and yet were considered Jewish in Hellenistic circles.

REAL Jews were not happy about this and we can use Galileans as an example of oppressed Aramaic Jews who were pious to traditions and laws, yet we have examples of these people using many methods to skirt the laws and semi follow them.

So in context my problem with the above statement is which Jew??
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