When/what is the End of Days?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by Secret Alias »

There are too many variables to be certain of carbon dating anything. It more or less gives you a rough idea, give or take.
Where is that rolling on the ground laughing smiley! So let me get this straight you accept C-14 dating generally, you accept the C-14 dating for these documents but you add - it's only a 'rough idea.' Yeah an idea that's rough - really rough - on your hypothesis. What dating would you accept makes your theory unworkable - 3000 BCE? What dating would prove your hypothesis? You don't even have an argument once you accept the C-14 results. At least claim there is a conspiracy against your theory. Use some imagination, please. :popcorn:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote:The idea that the C-14 dating doesn't disqualify this silly thread requires some explanation on the part of John2. This is what is so utterly annoying about living in America or perhaps the modern age. The sheer audacity of someone like 'John' just ignoring evidence that makes his whole thesis implausible while continuing to pound out silly threads like this is symptomatic of the dangers of technology. Say it enough times people will forget seems to be the motto.
Why not axe* me, SA? I am not at all sure the C-14 results mean that the scrolls were actually written around when the skins or papyrus were made. But you've been on my ... er John's ... I mean his boat, so you know, I suppose, how I we John he thinks.

DCH

* You wish sometimes ...
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by Secret Alias »

Sure. Like the dog that smells bacon inside of barrel of a gun.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by Secret Alias »

The question is whether any of this worth talking about. It reminds me of when I read Exploring Our Matrix. Maybe Jesus existed, maybe he didn't. It's an open question. He pretends like you have to be retarded to even entertain the idea that Jesus didn't exist. It's all settled for him. But the C-14 data makes the Eisenman theory useless. It requires the most fantastic set of circumstances to start to question the situation here.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote:Sure. Like the dog that smells bacon inside of barrel of a gun.
To fire it requires the long arm of the paw. :cheeky:
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by DCHindley »

John2 wrote:Stephan wrote:
The idea that the C-14 dating doesn't disqualify this silly thread requires some explanation on the part of John2.
I have explained this before, years ago, even. There are too many variables to be certain of carbon dating anything. It more or less gives you a rough idea, give or take. I have given links that support this view. I don't think carbon dating is certain enough to overlook what the DSS say, similar to how you find some value in what the Secret Gospel of Mark says regardless of its uncertain dating (and the absence of the text).

But even if we say the Habakkuk Pesher, for example, is certainly dated to no later than 1 BCE, many of the figures in the NT were born in or lived in the first century BCE (including Jesus in Matthew), so if nothing else the DSS give us some insight into this time period and are closer to the time of Jesus than the NT gospels.
In Solving the Mysteries of the Dead Sea Scrolls: New Light on the Bible (1994) Edward M. Cook stated that
"Not surprisingly, [after c-14 testing in the 1990s, which Eisenman was sure would validate his own theories, supported the "establishment view,"] Eisenman has changed his mind about the importance of AMS carbon-14 tests. The process “is still in its infancy, subject to multiple variables, and too uncertain” to be useful, and the tests of the Swiss lab “were neither extensive enough nor secure enough” to provide definite dates.
Maybe this is why SA thinks you are really R Eisenman's sock puppet. :?

Since this book was published, there were additional retests prompted by Doudna that changed the landscape a bit, so one really needs to sit down and thoroughly review the results (I previously linked to a thread where spin does this) before trying to fit a theory into the date ranges for tests of individual fragments. I admit I have yet to do so, but may get a chance in the next 6 weeks or so.

DCH (unable to sleep)
Lena Einhorn
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:15 pm

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by Lena Einhorn »

DCHindley: If you find your copy of Cecil Roth's book, could you specify some of the closer analogies between the DSS and Josephus? It sounds interesting, and online I can only find that Roth, and Driver, suggested that the Teacher of Righteousness would have been Menahem, or Eleazar ben Yair, but nothing about why they make that very interesting assessment (other than the fact that some parallel texts to those found at Qumran were also found on Masada)
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by DCHindley »

Lena Einhorn wrote:DCHindley: If you find your copy of Cecil Roth's book, could you specify some of the closer analogies between the DSS and Josephus? It sounds interesting, and online I can only find that Roth, and Driver, suggested that the Teacher of Righteousness would have been Menahem, or Eleazar ben Yair, but nothing about why they make that very interesting assessment (other than the fact that some parallel texts to those found at Qumran were also found on Masada)
I'll see if I can find it tonight. DCH
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

Regarding carbon dating in general and the DSS, Magness writes:
A type of radiocarbon dating called accelerator mass spectrometer (AMS) has the advantage of being the only "scientific" method listed here (in other words, the date is provided by a laboratory). However, it has the disadvantage that every date returned by the lab has a plus/minus range (this is a margin of statistical error). There is a 67 percent chance that the date provided by the lab falls within the plus/minus range ... Conversion of these dates to calendar years requires calibration because of past fluctuations in the level of carbon 14 in the atmosphere. Calibration can increase the range of a radiocarbon date. For these reasons, radiocarbon dating is most useful in cases where there are no other methods of dating, such as prehistoric sites in Europe or Native American sites in the United States. It is less useful at a site like Qumran, where we have other, more accurate methods of dating available. On the other hand, radiocarbon dating has been used effectively on some of the scrolls and linens from the caves around Qumran. In this case, radiocarbon dating is useful because these objects do not have a stratigraphic context (that is, they come from caves instead of from a series of dated layers at an archaeological site). Radiocarbon dating confirmed the second century B.C.E to first century CE date that paleographers ... had already suggested for the scrolls (a date consistent with the pottery types found with the scrolls in the caves).

https://books.google.com/books?id=NnpvX ... ge&f=false
Regarding MMT, Qimron notes:
The earliest manuscript witness, 4Q395, dates palaeographically from the late Hasmonean or early Herodian period. The latest witness, 4Q399, dates to the middle or late Herodian period. 4Q394, 4Q396-4Q398 date to the early Herodian period. The script of 4Q313 dates from the second to the third quarter of the first century BCE. Thus the manuscript witnesses span the period between 75 BCE and 50 CE.

https://books.google.com/books?id=gUK6q ... an&f=false
And Fitzmyer notes:
Unfortunately, not all the texts have been submitted to the Accelerator Mass Spectrometry or radiocarbon analysis, but the general confirmation that has come from it for the paleographic dating is, by and large, significant and noteworthy. It certainly puts to rest the outlandish claims by some students of the Qumran scrolls who questioned or ignored the paleographic datings. Such a dating of the Qumran texts gives these documents a status that is privileged for the study of early Christianity.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9d6gq ... er&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: When/what is the End of Days?

Post by John2 »

Regarding what MMT says, in addition to discussing sacrifices, gentile sacrifice, food sacrificed to idols and fornication (could there be a better summarization of this than Acts 15?), and the use of an expression similar to what James and Paul use regarding Abraham's faith being "reckoned to him as righteousness" (with the additional expression that James 2 uses about Abraham being called a friend of God appearing in the Damascus Document), MMT also uses the expression "works of the law" in the context of justification or being made righteous, like in Galatians 2 and 3, Romans 3, and James 2:
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? ... So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law ... For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works ... You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without works is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
MMT:
And finally, we wrote you about some of the works of the Law [ma'ase ha-Torah], which we reckoned for your own good and for that of your people, for we see that you possess discernment and knowledge of the Torah. Consider all these things, and beseech Him to grant you proper counsel, and to keep you far from evil thoughts and the counsel of Belial. Then you will rejoice at the End Time, when you find some of our words were true. Thus, it will be reckoned to you as righteousness, your having done what is upright and good before Him, for your own good and for that of Israel.
The MMT passage above also mentions Belial (as do other DSS), and Paul does too in 2 Cor. 6:15 (the only time it occurs in the NT):
What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?
If nothing else, I think this is a remarkable coincidence, especially when you consider that these are all letters as well.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Post Reply