The Importance of John 11+

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Charles Wilson
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The Importance of John 11+

Post by Charles Wilson »

FransJVermeiren wrote:The story of the raising of Lazarus can be read as a historical, non-mythological story of the war years.
FJV has stated something of EXTREME IMPORTANCE here. FJV is correct. Our Poster Jay Raskin established that John is Complementary to Mark by way of a Link from a Shared Source. YMMV, but John displays something left out of Mark at this point. 'N the point is John 11+ (John 11 into John 12). From my POV:

1. "Lazarus" => "Eleazar", as in "The House of Eleazar". "Mark is smooth but John tells us a deeper Story". On the view that the Romans are using a rewrite of Source John to tell us what they are doing, the House of Eleazar (= Jehoiarib = Hasmoneans) is a real threat to Roman Hegemony.
[49] But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;
[50] you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."

2. The Story turns. The Rulership and Priesthood (Revelation 5: 10) must be resurrected to give those Titles from God over to the Romans. This is where FJV's statement is very deep. It isn't Mytho-Christological. The Romans really ARE telling you what they are going to do (and did).

3. John 11 is written from Source because Lazarus dies and IS DEAD:
[44] The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

Lazarus is dead and his face is wrapped with a cloth ("Soudarian", for Jesus' head bandages in John).
John 20: 6 - 7 (RSV):

[6] Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
[7] and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.

There is no talk of resurrection here. Lazarus is dead and this "Jesus" will have to die - It wil be EXPEDIENT - so that the people and the whole nation should not perish. Hmmm...

4. THEREFORE, the chief Priests and the Pharisees will plot to kill "Jesus". 'N if this is Historical in the sense considered, then so is the early Markan Story of the "Man With the Withered Hand":

Mark 3: 4 - 6 (RSV):

[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

The statement in verse 4 is nonsensical with respect to restoring a man's withered hand. The Symbolic System that would render "Lazarus" a real person should be at work here. "Jesus" is looking back. The "Man With the Withered Hand" is freed from his affliction, as is the "Woman Bent Over 18 Years". She doesn't have to worship Herod as she worships God in the Temple. The withered hand is healed - He can write again. He can tell of things that happened years ago.

5. John 12: 1 - 2 (RSV):

[1] Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz'arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.
[2] There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Laz'arus was one of those at table with him.

Who wrote the Source that is so cleverly hidden in John 11? Evidence points to Zakkai. A previous Thread shows the middle chapters of Numbers that deal with dead bodies and the Second Passover for Sojourners and people who touch dead bodies no more than seven days before Passover. Jesus is Ritually Unclean. He could not be a High Priest to any Jew. As a human sacrifice, he could appeal to no Jew for any reason. Besides, Hebrew "Lamb" gives the Joke for the "Human Passover Sacrifice".

Some one knew something.

FJV knows something as well. Something extremely important.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Charles Wilson wrote:4. THEREFORE, the chief Priests and the Pharisees will plot to kill "Jesus". 'N if this is Historical in the sense considered, then so is the early Markan Story of the "Man With the Withered Hand":

Mark 3: 4 - 6 (RSV):

[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

The statement is verse 4 is nonsensical with respect to restoring a man's withered hand.
Agreed. The Greek has "ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἢ ἀποκτεῖναι" what can be translated also as "to save a soul or to kill". To me the question is whether verse 4 makes sense in another context.
Charles Wilson
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by Charles Wilson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Charles Wilson wrote:4. THEREFORE, the chief Priests and the Pharisees will plot to kill "Jesus". 'N if this is Historical in the sense considered, then so is the early Markan Story of the "Man With the Withered Hand":

Mark 3: 4 - 6 (RSV):

[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

The statement is verse 4 is nonsensical with respect to restoring a man's withered hand.
Agreed. The Greek has "ψυχὴν σῶσαι ἢ ἀποκτεῖναι" what can be translated also as "to save a soul or to kill". To me the question is whether verse 4 makes sense in another context.

KK --

Thank you very much for considering this Post. [[Edit: Minor speling correction: "The statement IN verse 4 is...", which you quote]]

1. Your alternative translation - "To save a soul or to kill..." - reads as a Hellenistic/Platonic device. Mebbe a key to Hellenistic, Galilean Culture (If it is not a pointer to a Greek Redactor). "Paging Outhouse!..."

2. "To me the question is whether verse 4 makes sense in another context". YES! Zackly!!!
My reading of "The Other Context" is that the Source Story (as Real or an "Historical Novel", perhaps from Ecclesiastes, see below) sees a Priest looking back to the Passover Slaughter of 4 BCE. His Mishmarot Rotation will bring him to another Passover. The Time Marker here is the March to Jerusalem (Luke 9: 51+) through the Passover of John. The march begins in 8 CE and ends at the Passover of 9 CE. The Priest has a Commission from Jairus. He marches to his death and he knows it.

John, of Bilgah, is tortured and killed:

John 1: 20 (RSV):

[20] He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

This then gives the "Alternative Meaning": On the way to Jerusalem, the Priest confronts the Scribes and Pharisees, who killed 3000 at the Passover of 4 BCE.

"You killed 3000 at the Passover 12 years ago. You ordered the Scribes not to write about it...I ask you now, is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?"
Everyone knows what is to happen. The Priest is being hunted and he will be killed. The very dark ending finds the Priest on the cross. An Aramaic translations tells of the irony:
"My God, my God, for this was I spared?"

Those who were with the Priest return to the only Path they have ever known:

Matthew 5: 21 - 26 (RSV):

[21] "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Ecclesiastes 5: 1 - 6 (RSV):

[1] Guard your steps when you go to the house of God; to draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know that they are doing evil.
[2] Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few.
[3] For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.
[4] When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it; for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
[5] It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.
[6] Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake; why should God be angry at your voice, and destroy the work of your hands?

Thank you, KK.
CW
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Charles Wilson wrote:
FransJVermeiren wrote:The story of the raising of Lazarus can be read as a historical, non-mythological story of the war years.
FJV has stated something of EXTREME IMPORTANCE here. FJV is correct.
Mr Wilson, thank you for this new thread.

During my research I found a lot of converging evidence that the Gospels are a veiled account of the war of the Jews against the Romans. The story of Eleazar and Jesus in John 11 is part of this.

Below I describe what in my opinion preceded the story in John 11. I wonder if you follow:
Eleazar son of Ananias, the captain of the Temple guard in 66 CE, gave the starting signal for the war against the Romans with his daring action to stop accepting gifts or sacrifices from foreigners, which made it impossible to offer for Rome and the Roman emperor. That way he became one of the most important enemies of the Roman empire. When the Romans were reconquering Palestine and Judea, the region where Eleazar lived, was surrounded, Eleazar came in big psychological problems because he foresaw his dreadful fate of torture and execution when the Romans would find him. When he became overtly suicidal or after a suicide attempt, his family bound him to protect him from himself and shut him up in a nearby memorial for his own safety. Eleazar’s sisters sent a messenger to his best friend Jesus son of Saphat, begging the latter to come and visit them in the hope that Jesus would have a beneficial effect on Eleazar’s psychological condition.
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outhouse
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by outhouse »

FransJVermeiren wrote: During my research I found a lot of converging evidence that the Gospels are a veiled account of the war of the Jews against the Romans.
I would not get to carried away looking for allegory and metaphor here when these authors were all divorcing cultural Judaism and making jews out to be the bad guys who killed the central character in their theology.

I think there are some obvious ones, but not really following much else.
Charles Wilson
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by Charles Wilson »

Matthew 17: 24 - 27 (RSV):

[24] When they came to Caper'na-um, the collectors of the half-shekel tax went up to Peter and said, "Does not your teacher pay the tax?"
[25] He said, "Yes." And when he came home, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their sons or from others?"
[26] And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.
[27] However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel; take that and give it to them for me and for yourself."

Josephus, War..., 2, 16, 5 and 2, 17, 1:

"When Agrippa had spoken thus, both he and his sister wept, and by their tears repressed a great deal of the violence of the people; but still they cried out, that they would not fight against the Romans, but against Florus, on account of what they had suffered by his means. To which Agrippa replied, that what they had already done was like such as make war against the Romans; "for you have not paid the tribute which is due to Caesar and you have cut off the cloisters [of the temple] from joining to the tower Antonia. You will therefore prevent any occasion of revolt if you will but join these together again, and if you will but pay your tribute; for the citadel does not now belong to Florus, nor are you to pay the tribute money to Florus."
...
"THIS advice the people hearkened to, and went up into the temple with the king and Bernice, and began to rebuild the cloisters; the rulers also and senators divided themselves into the villages, and collected the tributes, and soon got together forty talents, which was the sum that was deficient. And thus did Agrippa then put a stop to that war which was threatened. Moreover, he attempted to persuade the multitude to obey Florus, until Caesar should send one to succeed him; but they were hereby more provoked, and cast reproaches upon the king, and got him excluded out of the city; nay, some of the seditious had the impudence to throw stones at him. So when the king saw that the violence of those that were for innovations was not to be restrained, and being very angry at the contumelies he had received, he sent their rulers, together with their men of power, to Florus, to Cesarea, that he might appoint whom he thought fit to collect the tribute in the country, while he retired into his own kingdom..."

FJV --

Absolutely First Rate. Another piece of the puzzle.

Thank you very much,

CW
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Above I forgot something important about Eleazar. He was not only the one who offended Rome by ending the sacrifices from foreigners in the Temple, he also committed a war crime against a Roman army unit. Under his command the Roman garrison in Jerusalem was slaughtered after their safe retreat had been guaranteed on oath. As soon as the Romans left their arms behind, they were killed by Eleazar’s men.
Josephus describes the effects of this action as follows (War II: 454-455)
They [the Jews] saw that an irremediable excuse for war had been given; and that the city was polluted by such a stain of guilt that they must expect a visitation from heaven, if not the vengeance of Rome; they gave themselves up to public mourning; the whole city was a scene of dejection; and among the moderate citizens there was not one who was not terrified of the thought that he would have to pay for the crimes of the insurgents.

The following quote from the abstract of a recent article on suicide in ancient Greek describes a reason for suicide that may have been applicable to Eleazar (Psychiatriki 2014 Jul-Sep;25(3):200-7.)
In general, we would say that there were many reasons to suicide someone in antiquity. Very important factor was to avoid captivity and the consequent overcrowding of indignity, especially for politicians and military leaders. Also intention in these circumstances was to avoid torture and the disgrace of rape.


I read that ancient Greek didn’t have a verb that exactly corresponds with ‘to commit suicide’. Can someone tell what verbs or verbal expressions the ancient Greek used to describe suicide or a suicide attempt?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by MrMacSon »

FransJVermeiren wrote:Above I forgot something important about Eleazar. He was not only the one who offended Rome by ending the sacrifices from foreigners in the Temple, he also committed a war crime against a Roman army unit. Under his command the Roman garrison in Jerusalem was slaughtered after their safe retreat had been guaranteed on oath. As soon as the Romans left their arms behind, they were killed by Eleazar’s men.

Josephus describes the effects of this action as follows (War II: 454-455)
  • They [the Jews] saw that an irremediable excuse for war had been given; and that the city was polluted by such a stain of guilt that they must expect a visitation from heaven, if not the vengeance of Rome; they gave themselves up to public mourning; the whole city was a scene of dejection; and among the moderate citizens there was not one who was not terrified of the thought that he would have to pay for the crimes of the insurgents.
That is interesting.


Can we dissect further the 'quote from the abstract of a recent article on suicide in ancient Greek [Greece?], which describes a reason for suicide that may have been applicable to Eleazar' (Psychiatriki 2014 Jul-Sep;25(3):200-7.)
  • In general, we would say that there were many reasons to suicide someone in antiquity. Very important factor was to avoid captivity and the consequent overcrowding of indignity, especially for politicians and military leaders. Also intention in these circumstances was to avoid torture and the disgrace of rape.
I presume that is an English translation from Greek:-

Does "there were many reasons to suicide someone in antiquity" = 'there are many reasons someone would have committed in antiquity' ?

Can "the consequent overcrowding of indignity" be translated more meaningfully? eg. the 'indignity of capture' ? or 'being overcome with indignity' ??
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Re: The Importance of John 11+

Post by FransJVermeiren »

MrMacSon wrote:
Can we dissect further the 'quote from the abstract of a recent article on suicide in ancient Greek [Greece?], which describes a reason for suicide that may have been applicable to Eleazar' (Psychiatriki 2014 Jul-Sep;25(3):200-7.)
Ancient Greece indeed.
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The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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