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Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:04 pm

Another interesting issue:
Image

Psalm 22: The people despise the narrator, those who look at him ridicule him, his enemies with sharp instruments harm his hands and feet, the wicked look and stare at him.
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
All those who see Me ridicule Me;
...
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They gouged My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They [ie. the wicked] look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.


Isaiah 11, talking about the Davidic Messiah, David being the son of Jesse, compares him to a banner, an object physically fastened to a pole in the air that people look at.
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner("nes") to the people".

Another time this Hebrew word (nes) is used is in Numbers 21:8, where it talks about Moses putting a serpeant on a pole (nes), which the people are healed by when they look at it. This brings to mind somewhat the image of David describing himself as a worm (although not a serpeant) that people look at.

Zechariah 12:
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


A reference to nails:
"The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails, given by one Shepherd." (Eccl 12)
I don't know what this "one shepherd" has to do with providing nails (why not a carpenter?), except it looks like a cryptic reference. Wise words could be considered ultimately to come from God. (eg. The Lord is My Shepherd, I shall not want, Ps. 23)


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:00 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:rakovsky,

The Masoretic scholars did not change Zechariah 12:10 and many other proof quotes Christians use. Isaiah 53 "light" is not as important as Zechariah 12:10 and some other proof quotes.

I understand. It is much easier to make a letter a bit shorter or longer (yod v. Waw) than to take out or alter whole phrase like et asher into something much different (", whom" vs. "because of")

The oldest copies of the LXX, when were they written? I mean the actual dates of those manuscripts that they have.

The LXX is quoted commonly in the NT and was translated in the 1st c. BC., with 1st c. BC fragments held in the Rockefeller museum Jerusalem. NonChristian Jewish communities were also using the LXX into the Christian era, since there was a major Hellenistic influence on them and some Jewish writings were even originally composed in Greek, like some Maccabbean books. Hellenistic Jewish writers like Philo and Josephus respected it.
The versions of the LXX copied down later that we have agree about Psalm 22, but the 1st c. BC museum fragments don't include Psalms. The pre-Christian DSS's inclusion of light in Isaiah 53, matching its use in the LXX but different from its absence in the Masoretic texts is a confirmation of the value of our copies of the LXX.

If the LXX manuscript writers were going to change the verse to make it Christian, wouldn't they pick a different word like pierce (daqaru), instead of something that is more poetic at best, dug out / gouged /"oruksan" in Greek?
The first of the Greek versions of the Old Testament executed in the second century was that of AQUILA. He is described as a Jew or Jewish proselyte of Pontus, and the date commonly attributed to his version is about the year A.D. 126. His translation is said to have been executed for the express purpose of opposing the authority of the Septuagint: his version was in consequence upheld by the Jews. His labour was evidently directed in opposing the passages which the Christians were accustomed to cite from the Septuagint as applicable to the Lord Jesus. The general characteristic of this version is bold literality of rendering: such an endeavour is made to render each Hebrew word and particle into Greek, that all grammar is often set at defiance, and not unfrequently the sense is altogether sacrificed. From the scrupulosity of Aquila in rendering each Hebrew word, his work, if we possessed it complete (and not merely in scattered fragments), would be of great value in textual criticism.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/lxx_account.html

That is, the Jewish writer Aquila in the 2nd c. was intentionally trying to undermine the Christian reading of the Bible when making his translation into Greek from Hebrew. He translated Psalm 22 two different ways:
The Aquila Jewish Greek, translation 1 reads,
“they have disfigured my hands and my feet,” while translation 2 reads, “They have bound my hands and my feet.”
http://www.hopeinmessiah.org/psalm-22/

That is, both of the 2nd c. anti-Christian Aquila's translations used a verb of harm, rather than saying "like a lion".


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:08 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:Here is another interesting possibility. If the psalm writer was wearing armor in battle and possibly was on a horse or maybe not, it doesn't matter, the person's hands and feet or hand and foot (it doesn't have to be plural) could have been pierced and not the person's body. What do you think of that possibility?

OK. A person wearing armor or not wearing armor can have his body trunk pierced or not pierced. So I don't see that made impossible in the text.

I don't see any specification about whether the narrator was in battle, on a horse, wearing army, or pierced in his trunk.
I would think he was not in battle, since the people would respect their fallen warriors, whereas in Psalm 22 it says that the people derided him, although I suppose they could ridicule him for a cowardly failure. I don't think of "garments" and "clothing" normally as armor, but I think they can be. It sounds like his suffering is more than just at one moment of battle, as he says: "O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent".


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby kennethgreifer » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:34 am

rakovsky,

When you say that David in Psalm 22 is a type, what is your proof for that in the Hebrew Bible? Is your belief in "types" from what the Hebrew Bible says or from the New Testament? I don't think the Hebrew Bible specifically says that David is a type of Messiah, but I think the New Testament says that, but I am not sure.

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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby kennethgreifer » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:53 pm

I just put my free self-published book "Hebrew Bible Quotes that Have Been Misunderstood for Thousands of Years, Volume 4" on my site. It is all about quotes from the Book of Psalms to 2 Chronicles.

Kenneth Greifer
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:15 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:rakovsky,

When you say that David in Psalm 22 is a type, what is your proof for that in the Hebrew Bible? Is your belief in "types" from what the Hebrew Bible says or from the New Testament?

I made a thread about this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2836

I gave five verses from the Tanakh outside the Psalms where David is named as a metaphor for the Messiah in this section of my site:
David as an Image of the Messiah
http://rakovskii.livejournal.com/6735.html#cutid1

It's also been a common practice in post-Biblical rabbinic literature to use David as a metaphor for the Messiah and to treat the Psalms as Messianic. On the thread I listed in this message I quoted from the Pesikta Rabbati that applies Psalm 22 to the Messiah.

Regards.


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby kennethgreifer » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:10 pm

rakovsky,

The name "David" in those quotes could be a descendant of David with the same name or could refer to King David who could be alive again in the future.

In 2 Samuel 8, David ruled over different nations or peoples. Isaiah 55 does not have to say that David ruled over the world, if it is about King David. If it is about a future descendant of David who is also called David, it can mean all nations or some nations. None of the quotes you mentioned prove anything about David being a symbol for the Messiah.

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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:37 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:I just put my free self-published book "Hebrew Bible Quotes that Have Been Misunderstood for Thousands of Years, Volume 4" on my site. It is all about quotes from the Book of Psalms to 2 Chronicles.

Kenneth Greifer
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/

Congratulations.


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby rakovsky » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:05 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:rakovsky,

The name "David" in those quotes could be a descendant of David with the same name

I see. The descendant may or may not be born with the personal birth name of David, or the name "David" could be an alternate title, like how Jacob was also called Israel. Whether or not he is given the birth name David, this does not stop the passage from being Messianic.
or could refer to King David who could be alive again in the future.

One problem with that is that the prophecy to David about the ruler with the global throne was that this ruler was a descendant of David. In saying this, the prophecy distinguishes in effect between a resurrected David and the Messiah. The Messiah is in a way literally physically David, in that he is from the fruit of David's loins, the prophecy says.


In 2 Samuel 8, David ruled over different nations or peoples.

Isaiah 55 does not have to say that David ruled over the world, if it is about King David.

The thing is that in the Tanakh, "the nations" is a general term used to refer to the rest of the world's nations collectively.

If it was just Isaiah 55, it would be one thing, but there are at least five verses that do this, not to mention that it's a common practice in rabbinical tradition to treat the Psalms as prophetic of Messiah ben David like in Pesikta Rabati on Psalm 22, and it's also common in modern Judaism to recognize David as a metaphor of the Messiah in the Bible.


Encyclopedia Judaica: Messiah

This hope was expressed... in so many words in prophecies like Amos 9:11–12; Isaiah 11:10; Hosea 3:5 (the phrase – a Judahite interpolation – "and (the Israelites will seek) their king David"); Ezekiel 37:15ff., especially verses 24ff.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... 13744.html

The entry is referring to Ezekiel 37:
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

In the Jewish imagination, the Davidic persona and era became the pattern of the Messianic figure and age. The later prophets, such as Amos, Isaiah, Micah, Hosea, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and others, embellished and expanded the vision of the Davidic King and the Messianic Age to come

L. Bronner, The Bible and Jewish Studies, http://www.bibleandjewishstudies.net/ar ... essiah.htm

By calling him a "Davidic" Messiah, it is comparing him to David and using David as a pattern for the Messiah.

Did you look at my webpage on this, Kenneth?:
http://rakovskii.livejournal.com/6735.html#cutid1


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Re: Psalm 22: an alternative explanation

Postby kennethgreifer » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:52 pm

rakovsky,

I don't care what the rabbis said because I don't think they knew what every quote meant. I think they were wrong to take many Hebrew Bible quotes out of context and say that they were Messianic when many of them were not Messianic. What they did was just like guessing.

I did read the information on your page.

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