Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

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Secret Alias
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Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

Epiphanius Panarion:
'And it came to pass as they went the people thronged him, and a woman touched him, and was healed of her blood. And the Lord said, Who touched me?' And again, 'Someone hath touched me; for I perceive that virtue hath gone out of me.'

Elenchus 14. 'As they went.' It did not say, 'as he went,' so as not to represent him as 'going' other than as wayfarers usually do.
Roth (p. 300) "in Matt 9:19, the disciples are said to accompany Jesus, which raises the possibility that Epiphanius is simply providing a generic introduction to the account along the Matthean lines." But the Diatessaron here combines Matthew and Luke retaining the "they followed" of Matthew:
And Jesus rose, and his disciples, and they followed him. And there joined him a great multitude, and they pressed him.
It is interesting to note that the thesis that the Marcionite gospel was Diatessaronic isn't solely dependent on Adversus Marcionem's frequent 'Marcion cut X from the gospel' and X is only found in Matthew. It isn't only supported by Ephrem's Commentary which assumes that the gospel is Diatessaronic like or Casey's work on the Marcionite Diatessaron in Armenia. Consider what Roth says about the citation of the Marcionite gospel in Adamantius a wholly separate source from Adversus Marcionem:
Having already seen the influence of Matthew in only the few texts from the Adamantius Dialogue considered thus far, and given the general inaccuracy of citations in the Adamantius Dialogue, significant hesitation concerning the accuracy of the Adamantius Dialogue ... (p. 360)
Yeah sure you myopic piece of shit. It can't be that you want to silence the testimony because it gets in the way of your thesis, a thesis you probably spent a decade working on and now is likely an almost worthless stack of papers. Can't be that.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

And when you start thinking about it, how many INDEPENDENT sources tell us that Marcion's gospel = Luke? I count:

1. Irenaeus

Was Tertullian independent of Irenaeus? I don't think so. And there is clearly a Greek text behind Adversus Marcionem (you see it when he starts throwing out Greek words which weren't easily translated into Latin). So whom else is there? Clement? No. Hippolytus (assuming the Philosophumena is ascribed to him) No (he mentions Mark). The only argument would be Epiphanius but that is easily disposed of (or so I hope) - http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/

Now let's consider the independence of statements or testimonies that the gospel of Marcion was 'Matthean' or 'like Matthew' in some way:

1. Adversus Marcionem
2. Adamantius
3. Ephrem
4. Eznik
5. most probably Rhodo because he wrote an early treatise Against Marcion from the perspective of a Diatessaronic-wielding member of Tatian's circle.
6. all the people who say that Marcion had the 'antitheses' of the Sermon on the Mount and other features of Matthew not already listed.

Whether or not (6) is stretching it is easier to explain 1- 5 or even 1 - 3 by the Diatessaronic (or 'harmony' characteristic) of the Marcionite gospel than any other way. And they are clearly independent of one another. So isn't that a stronger argument or at least a harder argument to knock over?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

Does everyone want to see how worthless these discussions are trying to 'recapture' the Marcion gospel from Tertullian? Read this nonsense - https://books.google.com/books?id=hNYuB ... th&f=false There is absolutely no agreement between Tertullian and Epiphanius with regards to the 'I thank thee, Lord of Heaven" citation. Why is that? Because Tertullian or his Latin editor corrected his original reading with the standard Latin reading.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Stuart »

Stephen,

This is not a "proof" in any sense of the word.

You clearly lack a mathematical background, and I guess didn't take (or if you did, didn't grasp conceptually) any logic classes. If you did you would instantly recognize that the above is not a proof, but a smattering of anecdotal commentary mixed with your own assumptions, and some -often out of context- reference material. Hardly convincing, lacking structure or step by step reasoning.

If you say you have a proof, then you need to construct a proof. Then carry through with deductive reasoning, systemically examining and eliminate any other possible conclusion than the one you want to show. Only then will you have something resembling a proof. Otherwise what I see is an attempt at demonstration based on commentary, and a very weak one at that. (note, I realize in this field no mathematical proof is truly possible, instead inductive reasoning approaches are the best that can be hoped for).

FYI, there is no doubt that Tertullian wrote in Latin. And no doubt his quotations from the Marcionite text were direct translations from Greek into Latin. You have to refute many scholars on this point with your linguistic expertise in Latin - something you have not demonstrated to date. (A couple anecdotal examples of your "understanding" -which to me looks like speculation- of where a word came from in some other language is not a systemic examination of Latin usage.) What is more AM book 4, according to my quick count from the footnotes, makes at least 280 references to verses claimed as the Marcionite from Luke (covering over 500 verses), almost completely in the order we have them in the received text of Luke. Yes the wording of a few match Matthew rather than Luke, but that is a small minority, and is easily explained by Marcionite priority (Matthew using Marcion's text as a source); often the Matthew wording is present where Luke special words are present in the received text. To assert there is a Diatessaron type book was the Marcion's text, you really have to do your own reconstruction of the text to begin to make anyone consider it. After all you have to overthrow Harnack and his reconstruction and everyone who has done so after.

All I see here is a declaration and some unattached commentary and references. I see no postulate, no logic steps, and certainly no proof. :confusedsmiley:
Last edited by Stuart on Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by MrMacSon »

Stuart wrote:
  • ... Then carry through with deductive reasoning, systemically examining and eliminate any other possible conclusion than the one you want to show.
  • Deductive arguments would be best, but cogent inductive arguments would also be fine.
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

This is not a "proof" in any sense of the word.
Really? Maybe you need a new dictionary.
proof
pro͞of/Submit
noun
1.
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"
synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, documentation, validation, attestation, substantiation
"proof of ownership"
2.
a trial print of something, in particular.
adjective
1.
able to withstand something damaging; resistant.
"the marine battle armor was proof against most weapons"
synonyms: resistant to, immune from, unaffected by, invulnerable to, impenetrable by, impervious to, repellent to
"no system is proof against theft"
2.
denoting a trial impression of a page or printed work.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

Another important point made by Jacobs - http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2017/ ... other.html
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

So Jacobs point is - much of the Panarion was made up or plagiarized if you will - from the works of unknown secondary sources. We know that from our studies in Hegesippus. But the impact of that situation on the 'outline' against Marcion is under appreciated I think.

In this case Epiphanius does make explicit he is using pre-existent source material - viz. his own. But the idea that there was this pamphlet sitting around from Epiphanius going through the entire Marcionite Bible is just bonkers.

We begin with the basic scenario for all ancient writing - Epiphanius dictating and a scribe or a group of scribes scribbling. But most of these texts are made up of patchworks of older texts. I imagine Epiphanius directing his scribes 'to look here' and 'there' for the work they copied out mostly verbatim ... in exactly the manner I propose the 'outline' against Marcion was created.

The 'outline' follows the pattern of creation of the other texts - i.e. a request from Acacius and Paul, the Syrian monks. But in this case the text was never published. Why? If anything the outline looks like a lot of work supposedly original work was put into it (as opposed to the rehash jobs that are the Panarion and Ancoratus). Or is it?

If the other works of Epiphanius prompted by the two Syrian monks are rehashes of older material, why isn't the outline against Marcion? The idea that Marcion's gospel was like Luke and Galatians first came from the Greek text behind Tertullian's Against Marcion. The outline begins with the shape of the gospel which comes from Tertullian i.e. 'in the fifteenth year ...' and the first textual variant which leads to an 'antithesis.' I don't think that's coincidental. Epiphanius drew heavily from Irenaeus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

And the disagreements that exist between Tertullian's and Epiphanius's list of variants EVEN WHEN THEY AGREE on focusing in a particular passage is just mind-boggling. For instance - https://books.google.com/books?id=YLrKm ... ts&f=false Or this "But the text presented by Epiphanius as Marcionite contains significant disagreements with that presented in Tertullian, Adv. Marc. 5 ..." https://books.google.com/books?id=FsZac ... oQ6AEIHDAA or this "While they concur that Marcion omitted much, Tertullian and Epiphanius frequently disagree about its content and wording" https://books.google.com/books?id=6UTfm ... oQ6AEIITAB ""Marcion's text seems to have undergone widespread changes after the time of Marcion himself."102 The result is that Tertullian and Epiphanius sometimes disagree on what was in and what was out of Marcion's gospel." https://books.google.com/books?id=MU2U0 ... oQ6AEIKDAC

So WIlliams says let's just look at the passages where they agree. Ha! That's the solution! Ignore everything else. Maybe the problem is the premise that Epiphanius was telling the truth about having the Marcionite Bible. It is common for people to boast 'discovering' lost or rare things. This is likely another example IMHO.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Another Proof that Marcion's Gospel was Diatessaronic

Post by Secret Alias »

List of statements identifying Luke as the source of Marcion's gospel:
Besides this, he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us, furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul, removing all that is said by the apostle respecting that God who made the world, to the effect that He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also those passages from the prophetical writings which the apostle quotes, in order to teach us that they announced beforehand the coming of the Lord. [Irenaeus Adv Haer 1.27.2]

But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. [Irenaeus Adv Haer 3.11.7]

Wherefore also Marcion and his followers have betaken themselves to mutilating the Scriptures, not acknowledging some books at all; and, curtailing the Gospel according to Luke and the Epistles of Paul, they assert that these are alone authentic, which they have themselves thus shortened. In another work, however, I shall, God granting [me strength], refute them out of these which they still retain. [ibid 3.12.12]

There are also many other particulars to be found mentioned by Luke alone, which are made use of by both Marcion and Valentinus. And besides all these, [he records] what [Christ] said to His disciples in the way, after the resurrection, and how they recognised Him in the breaking of bread. It follows then, as of course, that these men must either receive the rest of his narrative, or else reject these parts also. For no persons of common sense can permit them to receive some things recounted by Luke as being true, and to set others aside, as if he had not known the truth. And if indeed Marcion's followers reject these, they will then possess no Gospel; for, curtailing that according to Luke, as I have said already, they boast in having the Gospel [in what remains].[ibid 3.14.3,4]

Marcion seems to have singled out Luke for his mutilating process. Luke, however, was not an apostle, but only an apostolic, not a master but a disciple (Nam ex iis commentatoribus quos habemus Lucam videtur Marcion elegisse quem caederet. Porro Lucas non apostolus sed apostolicus, non magister sed discipulus)[Tertullian AM 4.2]

In the scheme of Marcion, on the contrary, the mystery of the Christian religion begins from the discipleship of Luke. Since, however, it was on its course previous to that point, it must have had its own authentic materials, by means of which it found its own way down to St. Luke; and by the assistance of the testimony which it bore, Luke himself becomes admissible. Well, but Marcion, finding the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians (wherein he rebukes even apostles) for "not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel," as well as accuses certain false apostles of perverting the gospel of Christ), labours very hard to destroy the character of those Gospels which are published as genuine and under the name of apostles, in order, forsooth, to secure for his own Gospel the credit which he takes away from them. [ibid 4.3]

How, then, does that agree with ours, which is said not to be (the work) of apostles, but of Luke? Or else, again, if that which Marcion uses is not to be attributed to Luke simply because it does agree with ours (which, of course, is, also adulterated in its title), then it is the work of apostles. Our Gospel, therefore, which is in agreement with it, is equally the work of apostles, but also adulterated in its title. [ibid]

With regard, then, to the pending question, of Luke's Gospel (so far as its being the common property of ourselves and Marcion enables it to be decisive of the truth,) that portion of it which we alone receive is so much older than Marcion, that Marcion, himself once believed it, when in the first warmth of faith he contributed money to the Catholic church, which along with himself was afterwards rejected, when he fell away from our truth into his own heresy. What if the Marcionites have denied that he held the primitive faith amongst ourselves, in the face even of his own letter? What, if they do not acknowledge the letter? They, at any rate, receive his Antitheses; and more than that, they make ostentatious use of them. Proof out of these is enough for me. For if the Gospel, said to be Luke's which is current amongst us (we shall see whether it be also current with Marcion), is the very one which, as Marcion argues in his Antitheses, was interpolated by the defenders of Judaism, for the purpose of such a conglomeration with it of the law and the prophets as should enable them out of it to fashion their Christ, surely he could not have so argued about it, unless he had found it (in such a form). No one censures things before they exist, when he knows not whether they will come to pass. Emendation never precedes the fault. To be sure, an amender of that Gospel, which had been all topsy-turvy from the days of Tiberius to those of Antoninus, first presented himself in Marcion alone--so long looked for by Christ, who was all along regretting that he had been in so great a hurry to send out his apostles without the support of Marcion! But for all that, heresy, which is for ever mending the Gospels, and corrupting them in the act, is an affair of man's audacity, not of God's authority [ibid 4.4]

I say, therefore, that in them (and not simply such of them as were rounded by apostles, but in all those which are united with them in the fellowship of the mystery of the gospel of Christ) that Gospel of Luke which we are defending with all our might has stood its ground from its very first publication; whereas Marcion's Gospel is not known to most people, and to none whatever is it known without being at the same time condemned. [ibid 4.5]

For even Luke's form of the Gospel men unsually ascribe to Paul. And it may well seem that the works which disciples publish belong to their masters. Well, then, Marcion ought to be called to a strict account concerning these (other Gospels) also, for having omitted them, and insisted in preference on Luke; as if they, too, had not had free course in the churches, as well as Luke's Gospel, from the beginning. Nay, it is even more credible that they existed from the very beginning; for, being the work of apostles, they were prior, and coeval in origin with the churches themselves. But how comes it to pass, if the apostles published nothing, that their disciples were more forward in such a work; for they could not have been disciples, without any instruction from their masters? [ibid]

For if the (Gospels) of the apostles have come down to us in their integrity, whilst Luke's, which is received amongst us, so far accords with their rule as to be on a par with them in permanency of reception in the churches, it clearly follows that Luke's Gospel also has come down to us in like integrity until the sacrilegious treatment of Marcion. In short, when Marcion laid hands on it, it then became diverse and hostile to the Gospels of the apostles. I will therefore advise his followers, that they either change these Gospels, however late to do so, into a conformity with their own, whereby they may seem to be in agreement with the apostolic writings (for they are daily retouching their work, as daily they are convicted by us); or else that they blush for their master, who stands self-condemned either way--when once he hands on the truth of the gospel conscience smitten, or again subverts it by shameless tampering. [ibid]
Is that it? There must be more.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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