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Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:36 am

Assumed that in Mark the identity of Jesus is hidden again and again, what is the evidence of the Secret in Mark being really a MESSIANIC Secret ?

Only the incipit ?

Only the fact that Mark is pauline, and Paul called ''Christ'' his Jesus ?

Only the Peter's confession?

I put this question because of:

1) the apparent contradiction between Mark 13:6 (''I am'') and Mark 14:62 (''I am'').

2) the words of Pilate in 15:12 ('...'who you call the king of Jews'') make me to think that Pilate is describing - as a pure simple fact - what the scribes and pharisees thought really (that Jesus was the ''king of the Jews'').

3) the fact that Jesus rejected Peter as ''Satan'' just after the Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ.

4) under the cross and even as titulum crucis, Jesus is called ''king of Jews'', but apparently this is simply the view of him according to his enemies.

5) the demons, who know Jesus, never call him ''Christ''.


:consternation:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby MrMacSon » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:58 am

Giuseppe wrote:
...Paul called "Christ'' his Jesus ?


Perhaps Paul's Christ began to be called Jesus later? -eg. after Mark was written or began to be written
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby toejam » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:20 pm

1:1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

8:29 Jesus said to [his disciples], "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ." Jesus charged them that they should tell no one about him.
Note in this verse that Jesus does not deny it. Peter is soon rebuked not for coming to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ, but for not seeing that the Christ has to suffer and be killed.

14:61 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?", Jesus said, "I am..."
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby toejam » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:49 am

There are also some textual variants in which the professing demons do call him the Christ. Though admittedly, this likely secondary scribal expansion and conformity. Still, it is at least plausible that these variants preserve the original reading, with their omission being the result of careless copying, or a theological dislike of the the idea of demons confessing his Messiahship...
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Ulan » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:28 am

Giuseppe wrote:Assumed that in Mark the identity of Jesus is hidden again and again, what is the evidence of the Secret in Mark being really a MESSIANIC Secret ?

Only the incipit ?

I think it goes a bit past the incipit. The next few lines are mishmash of lines from Malachi 3+4 and Isaiah about God visiting his house in order to "refine" his people. Of course, this still leaves the connection of "his messenger" to "Christ" at best as implied. The Malachi wording would leave Jesus as carrier of God himself.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Bernard Muller » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:17 am

Assumed that in Mark the identity of Jesus is hidden again and again, what is the evidence of the Secret in Mark being really a MESSIANIC Secret ?

About the messianic secret in gMark and other oddities, a clear explanation here:
http://historical-jesus.info/28.html

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:22 am

toejam wrote:

8:29 Jesus said to [his disciples], "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ." Jesus charged them that they should tell no one about him.
Note in this verse that Jesus does not deny it. Peter is soon rebuked not for coming to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ, but for not seeing that the Christ has to suffer and be killed.

But it could also be that Peter is silenced because he wasn't saying the truth, and after he is rebuked for both his messianic hope (that Jesus is the Christ) and his not seeing that Jesus (and not Christ) has to suffer and be killed.



14:61 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?", Jesus said, "I am..."


Mark 13:6 : Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am,' and will deceive many.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:30 am

My point is simply that it is possible another interpretation of Mark where the presumed messianicity of Jesus is part of the mask and of the concealment of the his real identity.

If Pilate was making fun - and he was -, as a kind of scorn and skepticism, of the Messiahship of Jesus, then why was he speaking to the Pharisees when he said (in Mark 15:12):

“What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them


A possible answer is that Pilate was deriding the Pharisees themselves (!!!) for their blind belief that Jesus was their king.

If this is true, then the pharisees were scandalized about Jesus because Jesus, even as their (presumed expected) king, didn't want to act as their king.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:36 am

In other terms, the ''blasphemy'' of Jesus, according to pharisees, was not to proclaim himself ''king of Jews'' or ''Christ'', but to refuse to be such as hoped by the crowd.

A possible explanation for this is that our canonical Mark is dependent on Mcn (where it does make sense that Jesus is not really the Christ of the creator god).

Or, in alternative, this is the esoteric way by Mark to say that the true Christ is the Jesus who died and resurrected in another world, not in this world (the Mark's Jesus being unworthy of being considered Christ even when acting as his mere allegorical and humanoid avatar on the Earth).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 am

Giuseppe wrote:A possible explanation for this is that our canonical Mark is dependent on Mcn (where it does make sense that Jesus is not really the Christ of the creator god).

As far as we know, in GMarcion Jesus is clearly "a" or "the" Christ (Mc 24:26; 23:2,3), but maybe not "the Christ of the Jews".

(Maybe the Christ of the Jedi? ;) )
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