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Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:33 am

Following my line of argument, about Mark 15:31-32 :

31 In the same way the chief priests, along with the scribes, were also mocking him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. 32 Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down from the cross now, so that we may see and believe.” Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.


It can seem that the pharisees agree that Jesus ''saved others'' (and to that extent he would be already the Messiah and the king of Israel, according to pharisees). Only, they disagree about his ability to save himself. If Jesus comes down from the cross, then he would prove that he is able to save himself, and not only ''others''.

This may explain why the motivation behind the pharisees, according to Pilate (and ''Mark'' himself!) is ''jealousy'':

Mark 15:10
10 For he realized that it was out of jealousy that the chief priests had handed him over.


In short, the pharisees see (and agree) that Jesus seems really the Messiah, but they are jealous of him because they don't want a Messiah who cannot save himself: the weakness of Jesus as Messiah is the weakness of them, as believers in Jesus the Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:55 am

Maybe Mark is saying that the Pillars were unworthy of being Christians because they didn't give up their desire of theocratic supremacy over the Christian Gentiles. Insofar the Jews recognize Jesus as messiah (and a messiah not able to save himself) - Mark would think - they have to realize that they cannot save themselves only via Torah. Hence their hostility against Jesus AS MESSIAH in the Mark's story and their hostility against Paul in the real History.

Therefore I'm inclined to accept the following points:

1) the pharisees recognize Jesus as the Christ just as Peter called him ''Christ''
2) but they hate him even when they call him ''Christ'' before Pilate.

The question now becomes: is Jesus really the Christ in Mark ?

It seems so, but the problem is that I started this thread only after that I have seen the contradiction between Mark 13:6 and Mark 14:62 (the words ''I am'' as proving a false Messiah everywhere they appear). How can I explain that evident contradiction?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:06 am

Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.



Jesus' death 'between two thieves' (Mark 15:27) echoes the death of Samson (Judges 16:23-31) between the two pillars of the temple of Dagon.

Were the sons of Zebedee the two ''Pillars'' crucified with Jesus?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:36 am

.
Very interesting thoughts, Giuseppe, and a tough question. Perhaps it could be a little helpful to look at the forerunner.

Is John really “the Baptist” in Mark?

My impression is that there are three stages.

A John who is baptizing
Mark 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness ...
Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem ... were being baptized by him in the river Jordan
Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with water
Mark 1:9 In those days Jesus came ... and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 2:18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?”


John “the Baptizer”
Mark 6:14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus’ name had become known. Some said, “John the Baptizer (NA28: Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτίζων) has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” 15 But others said, “He is Elijah.” And others said, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.”
Mark 6:24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptizer (NA 28: Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτίζοντος).”


John “the Baptist”
Mark 6:25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist (NA 28: Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ) on a platter.”
Mark 8:27 And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” 28 And they told him, “John the Baptist (NA 28: Ἰωάννην τὸν βαπτιστήν); and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”


It seems that John is really “the Baptist” in Mark, but not until his death.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:24 am

You seem to think that the same ''identity-in-progress'' would work with Jesus: he is really THE Christ, but only after the entire 'beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ''. Jesus is not Christ during the beginning of that Gospel (only the Gospel being related to Jesus Christ but not his ''beginning'').

But Mark 13:6 seems to prevent even an (hypothetical) converted Peter & co to recognize the RISEN Christ himself after that they would go to Galilee, had they listened the news from the women.

Assuming a Peter who comes back in Galilee, what would prove that he would recognize the right person as the Risen Christ?


The Messianic Secret continues even after the Resurrection: that is what Mark 13:6 would be saying.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:03 pm

Giuseppe wrote:You seem to think that the same ''identity-in-progress'' would work with Jesus: he is really THE Christ, but only after the entire 'beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ''. Jesus is not Christ during the beginning of that Gospel (only the Gospel being related to Jesus Christ but not his ''beginning'').

Then I would say that :mrgreen: There are simply some things about titles in Mark that are not revealed to me. And if there is a tough question that I have no final idea to, I try to answer easier questions to make a safe start. The Baptist-question is such an easier question.

I assume only that Mark discussed titles and that many titles in GMark are in some sense problematically.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:15 am

ἐγώ εἰμι

Mark 6:50 :
...they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! I am (ἐγώ εἰμι). Don't be afraid


Mark 13:6 :
Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am,' (ἐγώ εἰμι) and will deceive many.



14:61
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?", Jesus said, "I am (ἐγώ εἰμι)"


I wonder: which is the real function of the verse 13:6 ? To divide the Jesus claim ''I am'' of 6:50 from the Jesus claim of 13:6 ?

In 6:50 Jesus claims identity for an apparent phantasm (and note that 6:50 comes before 13:6).

In 14:61 Jesus claims identity for an apparent clear subject (the flesh-and-blood man who is found before the high priest in that precise moment) but the apparent clearity is put in doubt since 14:61 comes after 13:6 .

The result seems to be that Jesus as a phantasm is more ''really'' him than Jesus as a mere man.

In other terms, where Jesus has more need of revealing his true identity (to comfort the terrified disciples) he seems as a phantasm, while where Jesus has less interest to reveal his true identity (what matters about the evil high priest, after all?) he seems very precise about his real nature.

Maybe this is a esoterical message for the insiders: the true Jesus IS a phantasm seen only by the insiders (via hallucinations, revelations, dreams, visions, etc), while the false Jesus is the legendary man known by the outsiders.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Giuseppe » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:29 am

Ask yourself:

when and where does Jesus say really ''I AM'' about himself?

When he appeared as a mere phantasm in the MEDITERRANEAN SEA to his presumed disciples/insiders?

Image

Or when he appeared as a mere prophet in the HOUSE of the high priest (doomed to destruction in 70 CE) before his presumed enemies/outsiders ?

The answer is clear, I think. Is this the Mythicist Signature of ''Mark''?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Is Jesus really Christ in Mark?

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:08 am

Giuseppe wrote:I wonder: which is the real function of the verse 13:6 ? To divide the Jesus claim ''I am'' of 6:50 from the Jesus claim of 13:6 ?

Mmh. I’m not sure whether you put too much weight on that sentence. I agree it’s a very interesting questioning of the Christ-title in Mark. But it seems that you are overlooking Mark 1:1.
toejam wrote:1:1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
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