The Best Markan Ending That "Mark" Never Wrote. An Inventory

[iskander]

deleted by iskander . posted by mistake

[Charles Wilson]

A person living in Pre-Transvaluation Judea would have understood a religious figure stating that he would precede other religious figures in travelling to Galilee. The religious figure would have been a Priest of the Mishmarot Priesthood and his rotation into Jerusalem had been planned as a matter of course (No pun intended).

If you are looking for "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and a savior/god then you are going to tie yourself into knots trying to make sense of it all.

Again: There are Lists (Multiple copies found in different Archaeological Sites) of the Mishmarot Groups matched with Settlements (Uzi Leibner, Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee, ISBN-13: 978-3161498718). Peter is from Immer and has been "assigned" to Jabnit, near Meiron, which has been assigned to Jehoiarib. Both Immer and Jehoiarib (as Corporate Entities) claim the Dynastic Hasmoneans as Members.

'N this introduces the Story that was Stolen and Transvalued: Peter is a child who gets to Jerusalem at the Passover of 4 BCE. 3000+ are murdered and Passover is cancelled. A Priest is saved by Peter by a "Miracle". The Priest states that he will precede the survivors to Galilee.. And so on...

Simple

[rakovsky]

The implication of Mark 14 could be that since they are both in Galilee, they will see him there, and that the reason he goes to Galilee is to meet them. It's kind of like saying to school friends "I will march in the parade tonight and then I will go ahead of you to the park".

but would you say your words if your park is the size of galilee?

Sure, considering the prophetic, wistful context. I once met a nice young New Zealander 20+ years ago and on parting he told me "We will meet again in the Streets of Auckland". I have never had any particular plans to go to Auckland and don't have his contact info. Back then people didn't even have phones.

I guess Jesus could have said "I am going ahead of you to Peter's House in Capernaum" and been specific, but if Jesus was going to be floating around, maybe he didn't want to be. One doesn't have to make a big deal out of this. If you have a friend and go to the same clubs in a big city, on leaving a small city where he is in you can say to a friend to tell him you are going ahead of him to the city and leave it vague if you want to.

"there you will see me" seems to strengthen where exactly jesus would be seen.

No, because it doesn't add specification where in Galilee. Otherwise, are we to think Jesus is to go to Galilee and meanwhile the apostles see him in Jerusalem? The logical conclusion is only that if they do see him the location will be the one where they are both at, Galilee.

both of them are in galilee and jesus says, "i will go before you to galilee" ?
one speaks like this even when one is in galilee?

No, but He said it in Jerusalem.

this all seems ambiguous .

Yes, but that's not really a problem when you are talking about old friends who part on romantic/brotherly/wistful terms, especially when one of them is, in the story, fore-knowing. In one of the gospels Jesus told Philip he saw him sitting under a tree, as if He had some miraculous seeing ability.

whenever mark has jesus go before his disciples is he always in their company?

Jesus was not always in their company in the gospels. One example is Gethsemane when e asked to be alone.

why didn't mark have any of them led by jesus from jerusalem ?

They were in hiding.

why didn't jesus meet up with them at the tomb?

You mean why didn't he wait around for days(s) until guards could come back and catch him? The NT wants to make the appearances a bit elusive and mysterious I guess.

27 “You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written:

the women went out and fled from the tomb.

Then everyone deserted him and fled.

jesus does not say that he will lead them again by being in their company.

Right, he doesn't specify it explicitly Himself. It's just the necessary implication. Otherwise, what else was the point of Jesus telling the apostles back in Mark 14 that he would go to Galilee ahead of them? So that they could go there and ask around how things were during his one day stopover after the Resurrection?

The only reasonable explanation was a post-Resurrection meeting that the angel told them would in fact happen.

The other thing, is that Paul's epistles are generally dated by scholars to have been written before the gospels, and in Paul's version, the apostles have seen the risen Jesus. So it was already part of the public Christian narrative that they saw him post-mortem alive by the time Mark's gospel was written.

Regards.

[james_C]

1. no meeting
2. every one fled
where did they flee?

"i will go before you to galilee "
makes me wonder if mark knew of stories in which the disciples went to galilee before his jesus got their.

[Charles Wilson]

"i will go before you to galilee "
makes me wonder if mark knew of stories in which the disciples went to galilee before his jesus got there.

Mark 1: 7 (RSV):

[7] And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

John is of Bilgah. The "Jesus" character is of Immer, which follows Bilgah as a Mishmarot Service Group. "Jesus" may be of Jehoiarib but the Geographic Point is that Immer's Settlement of Jabnit and Jehoiarib's Meiron are adjacent to each other and both Communities claim the Dynastic Hasmoneans as coming from them.
One Word Play leads to another. "Immer" is the same as "Immar" in Pre-Diacritcal Hebrew. So:

John 1: 15, 30, 35 36 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")
...
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'
...
[35] The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples;
[36] and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3298-bilgah

So, there are Word Plays galore, here. John is of Bilgah, which has embarassed itself by not Being There at the Altar. "Jesus" therefore comes after Bilgah but is ranked ahead of Bilgah. " 'MMR " is Immer and the Lamb, the "Immar-Yah", Lamb of God. Immer was almost annihilated at the Passover of 4 BCE.

Revelation 5: 6(in part), 10, 12 -13 (RSV:

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain...
...
[10] and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth."
...
[12] saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
[13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"

Did Mark know? Of course he did. Did the "Disciples" know where the "Jesus" character was going to go in Galilee? Of course they did.
They knew where the Priests were going to go after the Passover Slaughter of 4 BCE because they knew who was only Duty for that Passover: Bilgah and Immer.

CW

[rakovsky]

Hello James.

In English class, our teacher had us read a short story called The Lady or the Tiger. It ended on a cliff hanger, leaving it unnarrated to the audience whether a door would open with a lady or a tiger behind it that the story's hero would have to face. It was a fascinating plot technique and left the reader guessing which it would be.

My guess, as an optimist was that it was the lady. But my teacher pointed to clues in the story that it was actually the tiger.

Something similar is going on here, where the narrator leaves suggestions to the reader whether Jesus will meet the apostles even if it isn't narrated directly. The clearest example of this is the angel's words that it will happen.

1. no meeting
2. every one fled
where did they flee?

"i will go before you to galilee "
makes me wonder if mark knew of stories in which the disciples went to galilee before his jesus got their.

In both Mark 14 and Mark 16, Jesus is said to go to Galilee before the disciples did.

Typically Jews spent the passover in Jerusalem. If as Mark 14-16 says, the disciples didn't go to Galilee yet, an easy possibility is that they were hiding in Jerusalem with the doors locked for during the next few passover days like Luke and John 20 suggest.

In case you didn't see my message earlier, my best guess is that Mark 16 is implying a surprise meeting in Galilee of the kind John 21 and the Gospel of Peter narrate. That is, in none of the gospels, including g.Peter, does Jesus name a location in Galilee where he will meet them, notice. Without a set location for a mutually arranged visit, it suggests a surprise appearance by Jesus like John 21 and g.Peter imply.

Peace.

[james_C]

If as Mark 14-16 says, the disciples didn't go to Galilee yet, an easy possibility is that they were hiding in Jerusalem with the doors locked for during the next few passover days like Luke and John 20 suggest

they went to galilee when jesus was arrested. they shot off. they weren't waiting around to hear a story from an unknown man in the tomb. why would they wait around? so they can hear the "good news" ?
the "good news" wasn't good enough, it caused the women to seek safety in flight.

luke and john saw the problem too. why would you want to shoot off to galilee after hearing a message from some man in a tomb ?

they all knew that the disciples fled to galilee so they had to bring the reunions in jerusalem .

[rakovsky]

they went to galilee when jesus was arrested. they shot off. they weren't waiting around to hear a story from an unknown man in the tomb. why would they wait around? so they can hear the "good news" ?
the "good news" wasn't good enough, it caused the women to seek safety in flight.

luke and john saw the problem too. why would you want to shoot off to galilee after hearing a message from some man in a tomb ?

they all knew that the disciples fled to galilee so they had to bring the reunions in jerusalem .

Hi James.
I think I gave the reasons why I the story has Jesus going to Galilee first.
You can make the argument that it's more realistic in real life for the disciples to just go back to Galilee as soon as Jesus was captured, but in this thread we are talking about the implied ending to Mark's gospel, and sometimes authors don't imply endings to their stories that are the most realistic.

So in the story THE LADY AND THE TIGER, I think it's realistic that the hero could have gotten a lady, because I am an optimist. But the implication in the story is that he got the tiger, because of clues in the story.

So in the case of Mark, when Jesus and the angel are presented as divine or angelic beings who can make special predictions (eg. Jesus predicted his own death), then the implication by the author is that when these figures predict Jesus going to Galilee first ahead of the disciples, that this is what happened.

Also to answer your question, reasons they could wait around are:
(1) The tradition of Passover was for Jews on pilgrimage to remain in Jerusalem during the holiday that the disciples came for.
(2) They could have found it easier to hide in Jerusalem than to go through he city where there could be patrols
(3) Maybe the Romans were not targeting the disciples at that point for arrest, since John was at the crucifixion and trial, and both John and Peter went to the tomb without getting arrested.
(4) Maybe even though they were scared and left Jesus in Gethsemane, then according to the story's implications, they might still have had enough faith based on Jesus' miracles (eg. Transfiguration and resurrecting dead people like the girl Tabitha and Lazarus) to think he might be able to resurrect himself.

[james_C]

(1) The tradition of Passover was for Jews on pilgrimage to remain in Jerusalem during the holiday that the disciples came for.

where does mark say that after they FLED they stayed behind ?

(2) They could have found it easier to hide in Jerusalem than to go through he city where there could be patrols

where do you get any of this from marks text? you need them to stay behind, but why does mark need them to stay behind ?
they could have gone back to galilee because they knew that judea was too dangerous to be in.

patrols? they have been doing regular trips to galilee and you are worried about patrols?

(3) Maybe the Romans were not targeting the disciples at that point for arrest, since John was at the crucifixion and trial, and both John and Peter went to the tomb without getting arrested.

"Then everyone deserted him and fled."

john was at the crucifxion and trial? john and peter went to the tomb without getting arrested? where are you getting this from?

this is not in mark

"(4) Maybe even though they were scared and left Jesus in Gethsemane, then according to the story's implications, they might still have had enough faith based on Jesus' miracles (eg. Transfiguration and resurrecting dead people like the girl Tabitha and Lazarus) to think he might be able to resurrect himself."

where does mark say they had a faith boost?
if they had enough faith they would have been "taking up the cross" but they failed to, they fled like cowards.

if mark really thought they had a faith boost, he would have peter RETURN to the tomb like the other writers do.

mark does not say anything about them staying behind .

mark has the women and the disciples seek safety in flight.

why would mark want them to stay behind listening to the CLAIMS of a man in a tomb?

[james_C]

So in the case of Mark, when Jesus and the angel are presented as divine or angelic beings who can make special predictions (eg. Jesus predicted his own death), then the implication by the author is that when these figures predict Jesus going to Galilee first ahead of the disciples, that this is what happened.

14:28 is an interpolation

http://www.umass.edu/wsp/alpha/texts/ma ... 14-28.html

the author did not follow the implication you are giving because he would have talked about them fulfilling the prediction . the women don't speak, who is left to tell them? the guy in the tomb?

it makes no sense for the author to have peter remember betrayal

Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times." And he broke down and wept.

when he knew that peter would also remember reunion in galilee and at the tomb.