On the two Eucharists in Mark

[Giuseppe]

Am I only to see the following similarities in Mark, between the false (as earthly) Eucharist and the true (as heavenly) Eucharist ?

Mark 6:17-29

Mark 14:22-28

17 For Herod himself had sent men who arrested John, bound him, and put him in prison on account of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because Herod had married her. 18 For John had been telling Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him, and wanted to kill him. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he protected him. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed; and yet he liked to listen to him. 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his courtiers and officers and for the leaders of Galilee. 22 When his daughter Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests; and the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it.” 23 And he solemnly swore to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, even half of my kingdom.” 24 She went out and said to her mother, “What should I ask for?” She replied, “The head of John the baptizer.” 25 Immediately she rushed back to the king and requested, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 The king was deeply grieved; yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he did not want to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent a soldier of the guard with orders to bring John’s head. He went and beheaded him in the prison, 28 brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl. Then the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about it, they came and took his body, and laid it in a tomb.

22 While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” 23 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” 26 When they had sung the hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Possible parallelisms:

Herod = Jesus (both love someone, both give a banquet, both give up what is of great value,

John = the loaf of bread

the John's head on a platter = the cup of wine

wife and girls of Herod = the 12 disciples

the tomb of JtB = the Mount of Olives.

What do you think ?

[Giuseppe]

It's possible to see other similarities between the two episodes:

and he protected him. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed; and yet he liked to listen to him	he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it
He went and beheaded him in the prison	he broke it
a platter	a cup
And he solemnly swore to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, even half of my kingdom.”	and said, “Take; this is my body.”
The king was deeply grieved; yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he did not want to refuse her.	Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
and gave it to the girl. Then the girl gave it to her mother	he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it.
When his disciples heard about it	When they had sung the hymn
and laid it in a tomb	they went out to the Mount of Olives.

[Giuseppe]

As an introduction to this section, Mark narrates in 6:14-29 the incident about Herod and
John the Baptist in a way that makes the reader see it as endowed with a symbolic meaning.
What we get is a perverted counter-eucharist: a deipnon among the Jewish political leaders
which is dominated by the passions of the body (sexual desires) and in which the head of John
the Baptist is served on a plate. (Fortunately, I am not the only one to read the story like this;
cf. Iersel 1998 ad loc.).

(Henrik Tronier, “Philonic Allegory in Mark”, p. 33)

[Giuseppe]

It follows that, just as Peter is allegorized by the Word thrown on the stones, so John The Baptist is the Word thrown ''along the road'' and ''eaten'' by the ''birds''.

The road is already mentioned in Mark 1:3.
The banquet of Herod is the same banquet (''a perverted counter-eucharist'') of the ''birds'', symbol of evil.

Therefore, the Word thrown on the ''thorns'' represents the end of the ambitious Pillars (the Sons of Zebedee).

[rakovsky]

It follows that, just as Peter is allegorized by the Word thrown on the stones, so John The Baptist is the Word thrown ''along the road'' and ''eaten'' by the ''birds''.

The road is already mentioned in Mark 1:3.
The banquet of Herod is the same banquet (''a perverted counter-eucharist'') of the ''birds'', symbol of evil.

Therefore, the Word thrown on the ''thorns'' represents the end of the ambitious Pillars (the Sons of Zebedee).

I get that the word thrown on stones could be like the word given to Peter who denied Jesus, but the other analogies aren't clear to me. And even in the case of Peter, he is called a rock, not a scattering of stones.

I get that John the Baptist's teaching didn't bear fruit with Herod, but is Herod a bird or a road? It seems like a shakey connection.

Same thing with claiming the thorns are the Sons of Zebedee. Does Zebedee mean thorns? Did Jesus' teachings fail with them like it did with Herod? This seems pretty shakey too.

[rakovsky]

I do see a likely analogy or contrast between Herod's banquet that sinfully killed John the Baptist and the righteous Last Supper that has Jesus' body in a "superessential"/miraculous form.

[Giuseppe]

I get that the word thrown on stones could be like the word given to Peter who denied Jesus, but the other analogies aren't clear to me. And even in the case of Peter, he is called a rock, not a scattering of stones.

I get that John the Baptist's teaching didn't bear fruit with Herod, but is Herod a bird or a road? It seems like a shakey connection.

Better: The JtB's teaching didn't bear fruit because Herod kills him.

The ''birds'' are symbol of evil in Mark 4:4. Jesus himself says so in Mark 4:15:

These are the ones on the path where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

The ''road'' is mentioned in Mark 1:1 about John the Baptist:

The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
As it is written in the prophet Isaiah,
“See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way; [τὴν ὁδόν σου·]

Mark 4:4 :

And as he sowed, some seed fell on the way [τὴν ὁδόν], and the birds came and ate it up.

The meaning is that John represents the seed thrown on the way (where the sowner Jesus is walking: fulfilling Isaiah) but he is eaten by the evil Herod, therefore making vain his actions. The general topic is the inutility de facto of the preaching of John in comparison wih the preaching of Jesus (and his disciples).

Same thing with claiming the thorns are the Sons of Zebedee. Does Zebedee mean thorns? Did Jesus' teachings fail with them like it did with Herod? This seems pretty shakey too.

The thorns are symbol of excessive desire. Jesus himself says so in Mark 4:18-19 :

18 And others are those sown among the thorns: these are the ones who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world, and the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, and it yields nothing.

''Zebedee'' is an expected symbol of the ''cares of the world, and the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things'':

The repeated Markan characterization of James and John (but especially of James) as the sons of Zebedee probably alludes to the story of Achan (Josh 7:1-25; cf. Josephus Ant. 5.33-44: Zebedaiou pais).

(source)

The sons of Zebedee did want to sit at the right and the left of Jesus in his glory, but they were replaced by two thieves (precisely two ''thieves'' to remember their narrow-minded materialism).

[rakovsky]

I get that the word thrown on stones could be like the word given to Peter who denied Jesus, but the other analogies aren't clear to me. And even in the case of Peter, he is called a rock, not a scattering of stones.

I get that John the Baptist's teaching didn't bear fruit with Herod, but is Herod a bird or a road? It seems like a shakey connection.

Better: The JtB's teaching didn't bear fruit because Herod kills him.

The ''birds'' are symbol of evil in Mark 4:4. Jesus himself says so in Mark 4:15:

These are the ones on the path where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

The ''road'' is mentioned in Mark 1:1 about John the Baptist:

The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
As it is written in the prophet Isaiah,
“See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way; [τὴν ὁδόν σου·]

Mark 4:4 :

And as he sowed, some seed fell on the way [τὴν ὁδόν], and the birds came and ate it up.

The meaning is that John represents the seed thrown on the way (where the sowner Jesus is walking: fulfilling Isaiah) but he is eaten by the evil Herod, therefore making vain his actions. The general topic is the inutility de facto of the preaching of John in comparison wih the preaching of Jesus (and his disciples).

Same thing with claiming the thorns are the Sons of Zebedee. Does Zebedee mean thorns? Did Jesus' teachings fail with them like it did with Herod? This seems pretty shakey too.

The thorns are symbol of excessive desire. Jesus himself says so in Mark 4:18-19 :

18 And others are those sown among the thorns: these are the ones who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world, and the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, and it yields nothing.

''Zebedee'' is an expected symbol of the ''cares of the world, and the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things'':

The repeated Markan characterization of James and John (but especially of James) as the sons of Zebedee probably alludes to the story of Achan (Josh 7:1-25; cf. Josephus Ant. 5.33-44: Zebedaiou pais).

(source)

The sons of Zebedee did want to sit at the right and the left of Jesus in his glory, but they were replaced by two thieves (precisely two ''thieves'' to remember their narrow-minded materialism).

[/size]
Good job on this one, Guiseppe.
One of the reasons I have a hard time with the analogy is that even though it's true that Peter and the sons of Zebedee turned away in the story, they ultimately became believers too, based on the story's implications.
I understand there is a theory that Mark doesn't see the apostles as getting any appearances, but I don't agree for the reasons I listed here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2856&start=10

It's true that Jesus also gave a saying that a seed needs to die in order to become a plant. So I guess that could be one answer - the seed died on the rocks and then became a plant. Some plants do grow on rocks. But this answer to the problem seems a bit difficult.

I mean, the reason Peter has the name Peter according to the gospels is that Jesus was going to build his church on him, and Jesus elsewhere emphasized building a house on solid ground. With the gospels presenting Jesus as fore-knowing, the implication would be that Jesus would have to be ready for Peter's betrayal and to overcome it.

So I see how the failing of the word/seed can apply to Peter and Zebedee's sons, but it's still a bit confusing of an issue for me.

BTW, I also heard an Eastern Orthodox explanation that each of the kinds of ground can apply to a Christian. That is, sometimes God's words can be heard by them and other times it might not bear fruit because even Christians can be sinful and no one is perfect but God alone. So theoretically, I suppose I can see how the parable could apply to a person in more than one way and even if in a sense the person doesn't bear fruit, in another way he/she still could.