Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian legens

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John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

I notice that Andrew commented that:
The usual source for the claim that Hadrian built a temple to Jupiter on the Temple Mount is Cassius Dio. But this refers not to the original text of Cassius Dio book 69 but to the Byzantine epitome which has parallels to late Christian legendary sources. See Discussions by Yaron Eliav such as the one in God's Mountain: The Temple Mount in Time, Place, and Memory
and Hadrian's Actions on the Temple Mount according to Cassius Dio and Xiphilinus, JSQ 4 (1997), 125–144
I'll look into this, Andrew. Thanks.

The above articles I linked to note that Jerome mentions that a statue of Hadrian was on the site of the Holy of Holies:
In AD 398, Saint Jerome‘s commentary on Matthew mentioned that an equestrian statue of the Emperor Hadrian was still standing directly over the site of the Holy of the Holies, then consecrated to Jupiter Capitolinus.

“So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation: or to the statue of the mounted Hadrian, which stands to this very day on the site of the Holy of Holies.“

– Jerome, Commentaries on Isaiah 2.8: Matthew 24.15
Last edited by John2 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

I've read that sacrifices were resumed on an altar on the Temple Mount post-70 CE but I'm having trouble finding primary sources that supports this. The best I've seen so far are these:
Many stories in the Talmud testify to the fact that leading rabbis continued to pray on the now desolate Temple Mount.

[Note 4 for this says: BT Makkot 24b; BT, Shabbat 15a; BT, Rosh Hashanah 31a; BT, Sanhedrin 11b; BT, Avoda Zara 20a.]

Ascent to the Temple Mount was not limited to rabbis; the people's attachment to the former sanctuary also remained very strong. One story relates that "Ben Zoma once saw a [large] crowd on one of the steps of the Temple Mount."

[Note 5 for this says: Berakhot 58a; see, also, Mordechai Fogelman, Beit Mordechai (Jerusalem: Mossad Harav Kook, 2009), p. 205.]

The people continued to bring sacrifices that were offered on a Temple Mount altar that had survived the destructive fire by the Romans. The Mishnah, a central code of Jewish law codified in the early third century C.E., states that "one may offer sacrifices [on the place where the temple used to stand] even though there is no house [i.e., temple]."

[Note 6 for this says: Mishnah (M) Eduyot 8.6; see also Maimonides, Hilkhot Bet Ha-bechira 6.15.]

Some rabbis held that the sacrificial services continued almost without interruption for sixty-five years following the temple's destruction while others suggest that sacrificial services ceased in 70 C.E. but were resumed for the 3-year period when Bar Kochba controlled Jerusalem.

[Note 7 for this says: " M Eduyot 8.6; Maimonides, Hilkhot Bet Ha-bechira 6.15; Ha'emek Davar commentary on Leviticus 26.31.]

http://www.meforum.org/3556/temple-mount
Mak. 24b checks out (as far as praying on the Temple Mount ruins post-70 CE), but I don't see anything in Shab. 15a or RH 31a about it.

AZ 20a says:
It happened that R. Simeon b. Gamaliel, while standing on a step on the Temple-mount, saw a heathen woman who was particularly beautiful, and he exclaimed: How great are Thy works, O Lord. Likewise, when R. Akiba saw the wife of the wicked Tyranus Rufus, he spat, then laughed, and then wept. 'Spat,' - because of her originating only from a putrefying drop; 'laughed,' - because he foresaw that she would become a proselyte and that he would take her to wife; 'wept', that such beauty should [ultimately] decay in the dust.

http://juchre.org/talmud/zarah/zarah1.htm#20a
San. 11b says:
For it has been taught: It once happened that Rabban Gamaliel was sitting on a step on the Temple-hill and the well known Scribe Johanan was standing before him while three cut sheets were lying before him. 'Take one sheet', he said, 'and write an epistle to our brethren in Upper Galilee and to those in Lower Galilee, saying: "May your peace be great! We beg to inform you that the time of 'removal' has arrived for setting aside [the tithe] from the olive heaps." Take another sheet, and write to our brethren of the South, "May your peace be great! We beg to inform you that the time of 'removal' has arrived for setting aside the tithe from the corn sheaves." And take the third and write to our brethren the Exiles in Babylon and to those in Media, and to all the other exiled [sons] of Israel, saying: "May your peace be great for ever! We beg to inform you that the doves are still tender and the lambs still too young and that the crops are not yet ripe. It seems advisable to me and to my colleagues to add thirty days to this year."' [Yet] it is possible [that the modesty shown by Rabban Gamaliel in this case belongs to the period] after he had been deposed [from the office of Nasi].

http://www.judentum.org/talmud/traktate ... html#PARTb
Ber. 58a says:
The Gemara relates: Ben Zoma once saw a multitude [okhlosa] of Israel while standing on a stair on the Temple Mount.

http://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.58a.3?l ... l&lang2=en
M. Eduyot says:
Rabbi Yehoshua said: I heard that we may sacrifice even without the Temple and eat the holy sacrifices even though there are no curtains, and [eat] the regular sacrifices and second tithes even though there is no wall [surrounding Jerusalem] because the first sanctification sanctified [the area] for its time and for the time to come.

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Eduyot.8 ... l&lang2=en
So it seems like conjecture to me, as far as sacrifices are concerned.
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John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

This webpage also mentions the Latin inscription referring to Aelia Capitolina and also says that:
The gate in the northern wall of the Old City of Jerusalem, designed to serve those entering the city from the north, was constructed in 1538 during the reign of the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Known today as the Damascus Gate, it is the largest and most elaborate of all the Old City gates.

Massive architectural remains incorporated into the foundations of the present structure suggested the possibility that it concealed parts of an earlier gate. Indeed, during the 1930s and again in the 1960s, excavations along the outer side of the Damascus Gate exposed the remains of the fortified Crusader gate and, below it, the second century Roman city gate preserved almost intact.

New excavations between 1979 - 1984 enabled scholars to familiarize themselves with this unique gate. It was an impressive city gate with three entrances, protected on both sides by massive towers. Only the eastern entrance has survived in its entirety but it indicates that all the entrances were spanned by arches, while engaged columns on high bases decorated the sides of each entrance.

The walls of the towers were built of large, well-dressed stones with typically Herodian margins. They had, no doubt, been removed from public buildings and from the retaining walls of the Temple Mount, after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman legions. The eastern tower of the Roman gate has survived to a height of 12 m., almost its original height, while the western tower is preserved to a height of 11 m. A flight of steps gives access to the roof of the towers.

The later excavations put an end to the longstanding dispute concerning the date of the gate's construction. It is now clear that the gate was part of Roman Aelia Capitolina built at the beginning of the second century ... The elaborate city gate was undoubtedly built by Hadrian to mark the northern border of the unwalled Roman colony.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the ... capitolina
And here's a good article about it in Haaretz:
Following the latest wave of excavations, which began in the mid-1990s, more and more archaeologists have become convinced that Aelia Capitolina was a much larger and more important city than was once thought, and its influence on the later development of modern Jerusalem was dramatic.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/fe ... e-1.413874
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John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

I've been finding references to Trajan and Hadrian attempting to rebuild the Temple (the latter prior to the Bar Kokhba revolt), but again I'm having trouble finding the primary sources that support it.

One of the websites I linked to above says that:
Not only did the Jews continue to offer sacrifices and prayer on the mount, but at least once in the half-century following the temple's destruction, they began to build a new edifice for a third temple. Emperor Hadrian (76-138), eager to gain the cooperation of the Jews, granted them permission to rebuild their temple. The Jews started to make the necessary preparations, but before long, Hadrian, at the instigation of the Samaritans, went back on his word and the project was stopped

http://www.meforum.org/3556/temple-mount
Note 8 for this says that this is in Genesis Rabba 64.10.

Feldman says it's 64.8.
...according to the Midrash Genesis Rabbah (64.8) ... Hadrian originally declared that the Temple be rebuilt ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=pACJY ... an&f=false

Footnote 52 to this says:
Mantel ... rightly stresses the likelihood of the historicity of this account by noting that the Jews would hardly would have invented a story ascribing good will to Hadrian, after whose name the epithets "the wicked" or "may his bones be pulverized" are often found ...
Maybe so, but I'm more interested in finding this Genesis Rabbah passage and I can't find it (64 doesn't seem to be completely translated here: http://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.64?lang=bi and it's not here: https://archive.org/stream/RabbaGenesis ... p_djvu.txt and I don't see the passage here: https://archive.org/stream/RabbaGenesis ... 7/mode/2up), but this website cites it (and says it's 64.10):
The very first recorded attempt to rebuild the Holy Temple occurred just a few short years after the destruction of the Second Temple, in the era of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Chananya:

"In the time of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Chananya, the evil empire (the Caesar Hadrian) decreed that the Temple may be rebuilt. Two wealthy Jews, Papus and Lilianus were appointed to finance the project. They accompanied the exiles along the way from Acre until Antioch, supplying them with silver, gold and all their needs."

"Meanwhile, the Samaritans went to the Emperor and lied. They said: 'Know, O King, that the Jews are rebelling against you! When they rebuild the Temple, they will cease to pay the royal taxes.`' Hadrian replied, 'What shall I do? I have already authorized the decree!'"

"They responded; 'All you need do is send a message to them saying, 'Change the location of the Temple just a bit - or, add on another five cubits to the site." Then they will withdraw of their own accord.'"

"The whole nation had gathered in the valley of Beit Ramon when the Emperor's edict arrived. They began to wail and cry."

"They considered rebelling against Hadrian, but Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Chananya rose and spoke before them. 'It is enough that we have escaped from these people with our lives,' he said. The Jews dispersed and each man returned to his home." (Bereshit Rabbah 64)

http://www.templeinstitute.org/build.htm
I've also read that Trajan attempted to rebuild the Temple before Hadrian and I want to look into this too. Wilson notes this too and adds Nerva:
There are a number of rabbinic traditions datable to the 90s which connect a resumption of the Temple Tax to an abortive attempt to rebuild the Temple ... From the above evidence we concluded that Nerva had been favourably disposed towards the rebuilding of the Temple. However, the brevity of his reign did not allow the matter to move beyond the promissory stage, and the Jews, expecting Trajan to act on the promise, established the Trajan Day holiday to honour the newly installed emperor ... But Jewish hopes ... were abruptly shattered when the new emperor ... executed two of the principals involved in the Temple Tax collection.

https://books.google.com/books?id=LJRkD ... le&f=false


But to bring it back to Julian, I'm still wondering if there are any examples a pagan temple bursting into flames like the Temple Mount (assuming that they too must have accumulated methane producing animal remains). In the meantime, I'm still leaning towards the methane being produced by the people who were hiding under the Temple in 70 CE.
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by DCHindley »

John2 wrote:In the meantime, I'm still leaning towards the methane being produced by the people who were hiding under the Temple in 70 CE.
in our Vietnam war, we had "tunnel rats" who would jump into the Viet Cong tunnel entrances, after setting off a few fragmentary grenades, with flashlight and pistol in hand, with the sole purpose of killing anyone they found there and discovering where the tunnels led. They'd find whole military camps under the ground, including hospitals, movie theaters and mess halls. Now they'd blow them up, but I think they'd take the bodies out first if only for the purpose of body counts they loved to do.

Considering how much gold, silver, spices and costly robes were stored underground in the passages, I'd have thought that the Romans would send in their version of "tunnel rats" to ferret out loot. Since it's hard to cart away loot when it stinks to high heaven in the passages, I'd think they would have also had the dead bodies they found in them carried away for disposal. I mean, burning down the temple building is one thing, but that, and the demolition of any remaining walls and major structures, would probably not have disturbed the underground passages, although they would be dark and mystifying to the Roman soldiers.

When Simon Bar Giora decided it was better to surrender himself, just in case God was waiting for the absolute last moment to come down to help out with the revolution, he "rose up" from one of the passages under the site where the temple had stood, apparently in plain sight. I keep thinking of some sort of dumb-waiter or stage-elevator that was still operable. Up from the ground rises a gentleman dressed in purple, very dramatic entrance.

Since I do not think anyone continued to flush water down the drains after the destruction, although I understand that at lower levels there was some water flowing into it from the pool of Siloam etc, my guess would be that whatever gore was still in there was decomposing away. The drain from the septic pools apparently emptied into the Kidron valley under the temple foundation walls, where it was used to water and fertilize the vegetable gardens and groves of trees there.

But that is also exactly where the Romans would be tossing blocks of stone they tore down from the remains of the temple, so my guess would be that it had blocked the drain exit. The septic system eventually filled up and became a cesspool. Mmmmm. Those Roman soldiers in the camp who made use of the pool of Siloam would have stopped up the drain that had fed the temple sewer as soon as it backed up that far with sludge and started to pollute the water. Of course, in time, the Romans, Byzantines and Muslims would have re-built parts of it, reusing those very blocks that had stopped up the drain, and presumably with some sort of water and sewer system added or restored, but the stories of the 19th century explorers tells us that these systems had been neglected for a very long time.

DCH
John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

Hm. That sounds plausible. I was leaning towards the idea that the Romans might not have been aware of the storage rooms under the Temple, but then you reminded me of Simon bar Giora and the blocks of stone thrown in the Kidron valley blocking the drains. Maybe the latter is why pagan temples haven't burst into flames (if none have). Hm.
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by andrewcriddle »

John2 wrote:I notice that Andrew commented that:
The usual source for the claim that Hadrian built a temple to Jupiter on the Temple Mount is Cassius Dio. But this refers not to the original text of Cassius Dio book 69 but to the Byzantine epitome which has parallels to late Christian legendary sources. See Discussions by Yaron Eliav such as the one in God's Mountain: The Temple Mount in Time, Place, and Memory
and Hadrian's Actions on the Temple Mount according to Cassius Dio and Xiphilinus, JSQ 4 (1997), 125–144
I'll look into this, Andrew. Thanks.

The above articles I linked to note that Jerome mentions that a statue of Hadrian was on the site of the Holy of Holies:
In AD 398, Saint Jerome‘s commentary on Matthew mentioned that an equestrian statue of the Emperor Hadrian was still standing directly over the site of the Holy of the Holies, then consecrated to Jupiter Capitolinus.

“So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation: or to the statue of the mounted Hadrian, which stands to this very day on the site of the Holy of Holies.“

– Jerome, Commentaries on Isaiah 2.8: Matthew 24.15
A statue of Hadrian is not the same thing at all as a pagan temple.

Andrew Criddle
John2
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by John2 »

Andrew,

Well, no, but it's a piece of what I'm now seeing is a very complicated puzzle, and I need to reexamine the whole issue (including reading the article you mentioned if I can find it).

In the meantime, while I'm having a busy Friday [edit: oops; I meant Thursday] night at work, I found this website with some other puzzle pieces I've never seen before and need to investigate (and also mentions Tuvia Sagiv, whose theory about the Temple Mount I've found compelling). The most interesting puzzle piece to me, and which Sagiv also notes, is that the contemporary temple of Jupiter in Baalbek, Lebanon, matches what we see on the Temple Mount today when it is superimposed (which is also part of Sagiv's argument).

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/herod-vs-hadrian.html

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-ar ... -floor.htm
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Re: Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian lege

Post by Clive »

Jupiter replacing Yahweh? But maybe this is further conjoining of gods as with the earlier one of Zeus and Jupiter?
Differences Between Zeus and Jupiter
• Categorized under Culture | Differences Between Zeus and Jupiter

Zeus vs Jupiter

The stories during ancient times, including the stories about the all-powerful gods and gallant warriors, have never failed to amaze us. The mighty Zeus is perhaps the most popular fictional god that we ever heard about. Several films have been made which are based on the story about the Greek gods and their relationship with humankind. And Zeus will never be out of the show. Though Zeus might be the more popular God, Jupiter, a Roman god, is still comparable to that of Zeus. Jupiter might not always be the talk of the show, but even Jupiter is confused with his connection to Zeus. Let us discover the differences between these two gods.

Zeus and Jupiter are undoubtedly gods with different names. However, many say that they are both the same gods only of different origins and storytellers. Zeus is the great ruler of the Greek gods while Jupiter is the one who is sovereign to the Roman gods. Both gods play the role of protector of the weak race of humankind. If the humans pray and call on their name, the gods will come to their rescue.

Zeus and Jupiter are both gods of the vast sky and the roaring thunder. Their presence creates law and order and even fate. Zeus and Jupiter have the lightning bolt as their ultimate weapon. To retrieve the bolts they have thrown, they use an eagle. I don’t know why they have to retrieve their thrown bolts – perhaps recycling? Zeus is married to his sister, Hera, while Jupiter is also married to his sister, Juno. Though they are married, these gods of the gods are not faithful husbands to their wife. If you have watched films about Greek and Roman mythologies, or if you have read books about the gods, you probably have discovered that they have many children from different women, be they gods or mortals. Zeus and Jupiter have also played the role of being a playboy. These are the general similarities between Zeus and Jupiter.



Zeus and the other Greek gods reside at Olympus. Zeus has two brothers, Poseidon and Hades. Poseidon is the king of the sea while Hades is the king of the underworld. Zeus became the god of the gods after overthrowing his own father, Cronus. You might be wondering why Zeus became the god of the gods instead of his brothers. According to the source I have read, the three brothers drew lots and Zeus won out of luck.

On the other hand, Jupiter has many other names. They include: Jove, Latin, Luppiter, Lovis, and Diespiter. He is the god of the Roman gods. Other sources also cite that he is an Italian god. He became the god of the gods when his father, Saturn, died. Like Zeus, Jupiter ruled the world with his brothers Neptune and Pluto. Neptune ruled the seas while Pluto ruled the underworld. If you are a human and want to please Jupiter, you have to offer sacrifices such as rams, oxen, and lambs.

Summary:

Zeus is a Greek god while Jupiter is a Roman god.
Jupiter is the equivalent god of Zeus in Roman mythology.
There are no actual differences between Zeus and Jupiter. Zeus is Jupiter. Jupiter is Zeus.
Zeus and Jupiter are the rulers of the skies. Their brothers are the rulers of the seas and the underworld.
The father of Zeus is Cronus while the father of Jupiter is Saturn. When their fathers died, Zeus and Jupiter rose to the throne.
Both Zeus and Jupiter use the lightning bolt as their main weapon, and they use an eagle to retrieve the thrown bolts this t


Read more: Differences Between Zeus and Jupiter | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/miscel ... z4YbkZt92z
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscel ... d-jupiter/
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