Julian's attempt at rebuilding temple and Christian legens

[Kris]

I was reading about Julian's attempt to rebuild the temple and some of the stories that went along with it. The christians reported a number of miracles and a pagan author also recounts balls of fire stopping project. This article recounts it:


http://catholicexchange.com/greatest-hi ... ever-heard


Was this Christian sabotage? What are the logical explanations for the temple work being stopped? I am disinclined to beleve the Christian writers versions, but the pagan writer seems to agree as well? Any thoughts?

[DCHindley]

I was reading about Julian's attempt to rebuild the temple and some of the stories that went along with it. The christians reported a number of miracles and a pagan author also recounts balls of fire stopping project. This article recounts it:

http://catholicexchange.com/greatest-hi ... ever-heard

Was this Christian sabotage? What are the logical explanations for the temple work being stopped? I am disinclined to beleve the Christian writers versions, but the pagan writer seems to agree as well? Any thoughts?

I thought I recalled reading (recently) that Julian's resources needed to be redirected to other pressing matters (war, probably) and the plan was never realized before Julian's death. As for the earthquakes and "flaming balls of fire" rising up from the ground, possibly from the foundations of the temple edifice itself, this may not be as crazy as they seem. As most folks have learned, the ancient temple had a sewer system to catch the blood and offal that drain from the sacrifices, and the subsequent butchering of the sacrificed animals. There were also the ritual washings etc. Where these things flushed to is anyones guess, as it is not clear whether there was a septic system to allow it to break down with the aid of aerobic bacteria, or it just went into the Kidron river. I recall reading an account of an early archeological exploration of the temple foundations (18th century?) where they followed many of subterranean tunnels and drainage ways as far as they could, noting that when they did the latter the floor was squishy like they were walking on hundreds of years of offal (the internal organs and entrails of butchered animals).

Actually, I'm probably conflating Charles W Wilson's Ordnance survey of Jerusalem, made with the sanction of the Right Hon. Earl de Grey and Ripon, Secretary of State for War, by Captain Charles W. Wilson, R. E., under the direction of Colonel Sir Henry James ... director of the Ordnance Survey (1865), in which is found a description of the streets of Jerusalem being full of offal, but with absolutely no sewer system, and Charles Warren's Underground Jerusalem (1876), describing in very great detail his slightly later explorations of the underground channels that existed. Some functioned minimally and others not at all, as water channels or sewers, cisterns and sludge pits. Warren did use candles for illumination. Since no one will be able to find a scan of the original Ordnance Survey of 1865, there is a book called Recovery of Jerusalem (1871), edited by Walter Morrison in behalf of the British Palestinian Exploration Fund. It includes Wilsons original Survey of 1865 and edited preliminary notes to Warren's underground explorations of 1867. Those latter preliminary notes, considerably revised, were published by Warren as noted above, so consider this last alternative an interim publication delayed by health issues contracted by Warren and his crew.

Now, if the drainage system was stopped up when the original temple was razed to the ground, there would be a lot of offal that may never have fully decayed, or of it did, the gasses never had a chance to escape. By disturbing the ground while excavating the foundation, or perhaps due to a local earthquake, either air was let in to allow decomposition to start in earnest, or the trapped methane found a way out. Regardless of cause, the released methane was ignited by the sparks of the chisels of the workers, or torches used for lighting, and they got literal balls of fire, often called "Will-o'-the-wisps" here. Of course, it is a sad day when I must explain UFOs (Unidentified Fiery Objects) as "swamp gas" but there it is, a realistic explanation.

Now I can understand Christians being eager to push their agenda that the temple of the Judeans was "kaput" and the Christian Church had assumed the mantle they once wore. I mean, Judeans running to the local Christian Church to have the door slammed in their faces? That kind of detail is really a moral lesson, not a historical detail, in my opinion.

DCH

[Kris]

DCH. Thank you for this very interesting idea-that does seem perfectly logical.

[Secret Alias]

I would like to add (as I always do in these discussions) that there is nothing in the Pentateuch about the need to establish a permanent temple. In fact it specifies a portable 'impermanent' or flimsy sanctuary. Yes of course the idea that Christians believed Jesus wanted or predicted the destruction of the temple was what divided Jews and Christians in later centuries. But clearly there were Palestinian groups that objected to the establishment of a permanent 'acropolis' which was the Herodian temple.

My point is just to remind everyone that issues and ideas get transformed and bounce to different sides (look at the Republicans now going all anti-NAFTA). In antiquity it would seem Christianity developed from a school of thought within the Israelite traditions of the Common Era that objected to Herod's temple. What exactly that objection was originally is difficult to pin down. My guess is that it was against a permanent building structure and that this objection was first raised by Dositheans.

In time the Roman destruction of the Jewish temple became tied to a rejection of the Jerusalem cultic center. I am not sure that it always framed in this manner. But if I am wrong the Jewish destruction of the Samaritan cultic center by John Hyranus comes into focus.

It is very difficult to 'pin down' a lot of early Christian ideas. For instance was Christian abstention from wine and meat tied to the destruction of the temple. If the rabbinic sources are right - the Christians may have expressed mourning by means of their asceticism. But I don't think that's the right answer. I think it is more likely that early, primitive forms of Israelite religion were vegetarian. Yet it is difficult to explain the abstention from wine too.

Very difficult to pin down how ideas developed and which ideas were earlier than others.

[arnoldo]

Stephen Sizer has written a book, in part, concerning those who wish to rebuild the temple in modern times. The following is from the forward of Christian Zionism.

Those who believe that Scripture predicts the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and a reinstitution of the priesthood and sacrificial system offer varying degrees of support to Jewish Temple Mount organizations committed to achieving this end. Moreover, as Stephen concludes, since Christian Zionists are convinced there will be an apocalyptic war between good and evil in the near future, there is no prospect for lasting peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, to advocate that Israel compromise with Islam or coexist with Palestinians is to identify with those destined to oppose God and Israel in the imminent battle of Armageddon (p. 252).

[StephenGoranson]

David B. Levenson has studied the sources in great detail. His 1980 Harvard PhD dissertation was "A Source and Tradition Critical Study of the Stories of the Emperor Julian's Attempt to Rebuild the Jerusalem Temple." And he has a book forthcoming on the subject from Brill. He also wrote: "The Ancient and Medieval Sources for the Emperor Julian's Attempt to Rebuild the Jerusalem Temple," Journal for the Study of Judaism 35 (2004): 409-460. Abstract:
This article attempts to provide a complete inventory and brief sourcecritical analysis of the more than fifty sources from the fourth through the fourteenth century, representing a wide variety of literary genres and cultural contexts, that report the Emperor Julian's attempt to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple. By identifying the immediate sources of most of the accounts and discussing the complex relationships among others, the analysis is able to clarify specific historical and historiographical issues, as well, to establish afirmer basis for further research on the event itself, the sources, methods and Tendenzen of the individual works in which it is found, and the literary and ideological factors influencing the history of a tradition which has played an important role in Jewish-Christian relations.

[John2]

That makes a lot of sense, DC. I've wondered about this fire too, given the pagan sources. I used to be a big Julian fan and found myself looking at Julian's Against the Galileans (Hoffmann) the other day and was struck by how modern and sensible he sounds (assuming it is him). That people preferred to burn that kind of stuff is very unsettling.

And thanks for the references to Levenson, Stephen Goranson. I could use a refresher on Julian. It's been a very long time since I've thought about him.

[John2]

While trying to find something online about these fires being caused by methane gas I stumbled upon this citation from the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers which suggests that it was caused by the grain and decomposing dead bodies of people hidden in the chambers under the Temple during the siege of 70 CE:

The city of Jerusalem and its walls were built from stone quarried from Mount Moriah itself. Solomon's extensive quarries honeycomb the whole subsurface of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount with arena size chambers. Beside these there are also other purpose-built networks of subterranean chambers which were used for storage under the Temple. Especially during the siege in 70 C.E. they became grain stores and many men hid in these chambers after the city was taken by Titus. In the systematic destruction of the city hundreds, perhaps thousands, were entombed there. The decomposition of their bodies and other organic matter created pockets of methane gas waiting for the careless spark caused by the stone mason's hammer three hundred years later. These sparks no doubt ignited the gas released by the excavations of the well-meaning builders and blew them and their foundations away ... If such a natural phenomenon as an earthquake had preceded the fire, which is reported to be the case, that may answer the question as to what caused the fissures which released the explosive methane gas stored up since 70 C.E.

Schaff, Phillip; Wace, Henry, editors; Nicene, Post-Nicene Fathers; Second Series, Vol.II. Eerdmans: See Soc. intro. i-xv and Soz. 191-202.

https://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zchxxx.htm

I've been wondering if there were ever any fires like this under the ruins of pagan temples, but I haven't been able to find anything about it yet. If there weren't any, perhaps it's because the methane from Julian's fire came from the unique situation of the grain and dead bodies under the Temple.

And I just found Levenson's article for free here and I can't wait to read that.

https://www.scribd.com/document/2546560 ... the-Temple

[John2]

That's a good article. It surveys all the literature regarding Julian and the Temple (which is more extensive than I realized), but I didn't notice any speculation on what might have caused the fire, which was disappointing.

And it mentions that there is only one pagan account of the fire (Ammianus Marcellinus), but I was under the impression that Libanius at least mentions the earthquake, but I see that Peter Van Nuffelen argues that all the earthquakes that Libanius mentions happened after the death of Julian.

http://www.academia.edu/1508002/2007._E ... _ORATIO_18

[John2]

Now I'm wondering about where the blood and remains of sacrifices went and noticed this article that suggests they may have been washed away into the brook in the Kidron valley mentioned in M. Middot 3.2.

Two centuries before the time of Herod, Aristeas saw the spring water flowing through the temple, flushing out the blood from sacrifices. When Yadin was editing the Qumran Temple Scroll, he quoted the text that gives directions for establishing a place where priests could change their garments, bathe and change into priestly garments before participating in the temple services. This place for bathing required flowing water with a canal to direct the bath water away into a drain that escaped into the ground (1QT 32.11–15). The mixture of blood and water was forbidden to be touched before it vanished into the drain, because it would have been defiled with blood (1 QT 31.14–15). Rabbis said it would flow into the brook Kidron (mMid 3.2). The canal which drained the bath water away may also have been the same canal that washed away the blood from the sacrifices.

http://askelm.com/temple/t050115.htm

M. Middot 3:2:

On the southwestern corner [of the base] there were two holes like two thin nostrils where the bloods placed on the western base and on the southern base would channel through them and mix in the stream [that flowed in the Courtyard] and then go out to the Kidron Valley.

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Middot.3.2?lang=bi