About the name ''Jesus'' in a pre-Christian Naassen Hymn

[Bernard Muller]

to Giuseppe,

About the Justinus's book, Baruch, it seems familiar with the Luke or Matthew.

Therefore Justinus cannot be prior to Simon Magus, and therefore the evidence of the pre-christian Naassen Jesus disappears.

According to Hippolytus, the Naassenes knew about Paul's epistles & the gospels of Matthew & John and used them as basis for their beliefs. So, according to your remark about the dating of Justinus' book, the Naassenes cannot be prior to Simon Magus.
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These are, he says, what are by all called the secret mysteries, "which (also we speak), not in words taught of human wisdom, but in those taught of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him."

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3).
As in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
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And again, it is said, the Saviour has declared, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Mt 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
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"And again, he says, the Saviour has declared, "The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of heaven before you.""

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Mt 21:31 "... Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."
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And this, he says, is what has been declared: "The sower went forth to sow. And some fell by the wayside, and was trodden down; and some on the rocky places, and sprang up," he says, "and on account of its having no depth (of soil), it withered and died; and some," he says, "fell on fair and good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty fold. Who hath ears," he says, "to hear, let him hear." The meaning of this, he says, is as follows, that none becomes a hearer of these mysteries, unless only the perfect Gnostics.

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Mt 13:3-5 but simplified. Also in gMark & gLuke.
As in Mt 13:23 "But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
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This, he says, is what is spoken: "Every tree not producing good fruit, is cut down and cast into the fire." For these fruits, he says, are only rational living men, who enter m through the third gate.

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Mt 3:10 "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
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This, he says, is what (Jesus) asserts: "Throw not that which is holy unto the dogs, nor pearls unto the swine." Now they allege that the work of swine and dogs is the intercourse of the woman with a man.

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Mt 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
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"Concerning these, he says, the Saviour has declared, No one can come unto me, except my heavenly Father draw some one unto me". For it is very difficult, he says, to accept and receive this great and ineffable mystery."

(THE REFUTATION OF ALL HERESIES, BOOK V, 3)
As in Jn 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

Bernard, I have already explained why I think that the Naassen Hymn may be pre-Christian:
1) it is of a sect considered pre-Christian by Hyppolitus
2) it seems not Gospel-based.

But now my interest is about that "going doing good" in Acts 10:38. In particular was the show of power by Jesus something made by him BEFORE or AFTER his death?

I want to meditate about it.

[Bernard Muller]

to Giuseppe,

1) it is of a sect considered pre-Christian by Hyppolitus

Hippolytus never wrote the Naassenes were a pre-Christian sect. How could he, when reporting these Naassenes used Paul's epistles and the gospels of Matthew & John for justifying their beliefs?

2) it seems not Gospel-based.

Even if not gospel-based, part of it is orthodox Christian. And that part, the descent of Jesus because the Father sent his Son, is certainly according to the Pauline epistles and gJohn.

Why would you meditate on Acts 10:38 in isolation? Acts indicates Jesus has been on earth as a human being, showing power and doing good, as in Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

Hippolytus was understood to say so by Philaster (that the Naassenes were simply pre-Christians because they preceded Simon), and the reading of Philaster about Hippolitus is surely more important than what a modern reader can derive from Hippolitus, especially when even I recognize the concrete possibility that Hippolytus meant so (that the Naassenes were simply pre-Christians because they preceded Simon). But that is only the opinion of Hippolytus.
To confirm that Hippolytus was right about Naassenes, we should confirm the Naassen Hymn as very old and very mythicist in essentia.

The problem is that the Hymn shows a Christus triumphans insofar he is not concerned with masking himself during the his descending on the earth. Paul expected a Christus triumphans AFTER the resurrection, at the Parusia, NOT before the same descending to the lower heavens.

For ''Christus triumphans'' I mean a Jesus who does actively the role of revealer/redeemer. Just as both, even if in a different way, the Acts 10:38 and the Hymn describe:

Acts 10:38 :

he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil

The Hymn :

Aeons all I shall fare through, .... (delivering the gnosis),

In both the cases Jesus is going through a territory (earthy in Acts and celestial in the Hymn) by doing good (miracles and Gospel news in Acts and revealing gnosis in the Hymn).

If I assume that Acts is an historicist late evolution from the older mythicist Hymn (the same idea of William Benjamin Smith in Ecce Deus), then I would have a problem, since the minimal mythicism of Carrier/Doherty doesn't assume a Christus Triumphans during the descending, but only during the ascending of the dead-and-risen Christ.

[Giuseppe]

My hypothesis of interpretation is the following:


1) originally, an ancient myth of a divine Primal Man who is revealer of gnosis (but is not named Jesus):

The illuminator will come . . . Seth. And he will perform signs and wonders to scorn the powers and their ruler.

Then the god of the powers is disturbed and says, “What is the power of this person who is higher than we are?” Then he brings a great wrath against that person. And glory withdraws and lives in holy houses it has chosen for itself. The powers do not see it with their eyes, nor do they see the illuminator. They punish the flesh of the one over whom the holy spirit has come.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/adam-barnstone.html


2) in a second time, the Primal Man is named Jesus:

... Jesus spake:

Therefore send me, Father ;
Bearing seals I shall descend,
Aeons all I shall fare through,'
Mysteries all I shall open up,
Forms of gods I shall show ;
And the secrets of the holy way.
Having called it Gnosis, I shall deliver up

Philippians 2:6-11

6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself,
by taking the form of a servant,
being born in the likeness of men. 8
And being found in human form,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

3) in a third time, the Primal Man named Jesus is historicized.

Acts 10:38

38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

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QUESTION: what were the miracles (''signs and wonders'' in Rev. of Adam, or the revelation of gnosis in the Hymn, or the condition of ''servant'' in the Philippians Hymn) of the celestial Jesus before that he was historicized in Acts?

[Giuseppe]

I start to think that maybe Renè Salm is right when he writes:

Stage 2: The savior/gnosis is associated with ''God''. It comes down and merges with one or more saints. The savior has no material body except what it ''puts on'' whiletemporarily inhabiting the saint(s) below.

(NazarethGate, p. 418)

In particular, the Hymn would say what the savior did BEFORE his death: revealing gnosis.

[Giuseppe]

Can this be harmonized with the Doherty's model ?

We should abandon the idea that the founders of the cult saw only the risen Christ.

They saw the Son during his discending "through the aeons" and realized his plan by his direct communication or by simply seeing his descending: they were already Christians BEFORE the crucifixion.
Then the Son died (in the lover heavens) and they saw his death.
Finally, they saw the risen Christ.

Therefore it was not necessary for Peter being a Christian to preach already a risen Christ. The crucifixion could be happened (in the world of myth) even after the foundation of the cult by the Pillars.