Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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outhouse
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

Post by outhouse »

stephan happy huller wrote: The Christian race developed from 'spiritual adoption' from Jesus (= Ishu) is the fulfillment of that promise. .
In some circles yes.

Were talking about Hellenist perverting scripture that has been perverted in as many ways as imagination itself.

Christianity developed from a perversion of Judaism nothing more or less, and YOU cannot define the perversion down to a Jewish fulfillment with multi cultural nature of Judaism and Christianity.



This would imply if correct an early identification of Jesus as the heavenly Moses

Maybe is some circles.

Al this religious crap was thrown down a funnel for a few hundreds years, and we don't have complete knowledge of the information entering the funnel nor the middle nor the end. Only what came out the end as popular some 400 years later.


I believe the abiogenesis of Jesus has more to do with the socioeconomic difference between the common man and the corrupt government that generated mythology found important only to the Hellenist that had long been perverting Judaism for their own means.

More so then this religious reason your trying top justify, but make no mistake the religious aspect is every bit as present as the politics surrounding the identification.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

Post by stephan happy huller »

Another example from Justin, the same work (Dialogue):
I must speak, then, in the hope of finding good ground somewhere; since that Lord of mine, as One strong and powerful (ἐπειδή γε ἐκεῖνος ὁ ἐμὸς κύριος, ὡς ἰσχυρὸς καὶ δυνατός), comes to demand back His own from all, land will not condemn His steward if He recognises that he, by the knowledge that the Lord is powerful and has come to demand His own, has given it to every bank, and has not digged for any cause whatsoever. Accordingly the name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power (ἄνθρωπος νικῶν δύναμιν); for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power (τὸ γὰρ ἴσρα ἄνθρωπος νικῶν ἐστι, τὸ δὲ ἢλ δύναμις). And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures (τὸ γὰρ ἴσρα ἄνθρωπος νικῶν ἐστι, τὸ δὲ ἢλ δύναμις. ὅπερ καὶ διὰ τοῦ μυστηρίου τῆς πάλης, ἣν ἐπάλαισεν Ἰακὼβ μετὰ τοῦ φαινομένου μὲν ἐκ τοῦ τῇ τοῦ πατρὸς βουλῇ ὑπηρετεῖν, θεοῦ δὲ ἐκ τοῦ εἶναι τέκνον πρωτότοκον τῶν ὅλων κτισμάτων, ἐπεπροφήτευτο οὕτως καὶ ἄνθρωπος γενόμενος ὁ Χριστὸς ποιήσειν) ... For Israel was His name from the beginning (ὁ δὲ Ἰσραὴλ ἦν ὄνομα αὐτῷ ἄνωθεν), to which He altered the name of the blessed Jacob when He blessed him with His own name, proclaiming thereby that all who through Him have fled for refuge to the Father, constitute the blessed Israel. But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I have proved by many words.

... For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: 'The Lord spoke to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.' And thus again he says, 'A man wrestled with Jacob (Μετὰ Ἰακὼβ ἄνθρωπος ἐπάλαιε),' and asserts it was God (καὶ θεόν φησιν εἶναι); narrating that Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'(Εἶδον γὰρ θεὸν πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, καὶ ἐσώθη ἡ ψυχή μου, λέγει εἰρηκέναι τὸν Ἰακώβ) And it is recorded that he called the place where He wrestled with him, appeared to and blessed him, the Form of God (καὶ ὅτι καὶ τὸν τόπον, ὅπου αὐτῷ ἐπάλαισε καὶ ὤφθη καὶ εὐλόγησε, καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Εἶδος θεοῦ, ἀνέγραψε). And Moses says that God appeared also to Abraham near the oak in Mature, when he was sitting at the door of his tent at mid-day. Then he goes on to say: 'And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them.' a After a little, one of them promises a son to Abraham: 'Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall. I of a surety bear a child, and I am old? Is anything impossible with God? At the time appointed I will return, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. And they went away from Abraham.' Again he speaks of them thus: 'And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom.' Then to Abraham He who was and is again speaks: 'I will not hide from Abraham, my servant, what I intend to do.'" And what follows in the writings of Moses I quoted and explained; "from which I have demonstrated," I said, "that He who is described as God appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and the other patriarchs, was appointed under the authority of the Father and Lord, and ministers to His will." Then I went on to say what I had not said before: "And so, when the people desired to eat flesh, and Moses had lost faith in Him, who also there is called the Angel, and who promised that God would give them to satiety, He who is both God and the Angel, sent by the Father, is described as saying and doing these things. For thus the Scripture says: 'And the Lord said to Moses Will the Lord's hand not be sufficient? thou shall know now whether my word shall conceal thee or not.' And again, in other words, it thus says: 'But the Lord spoke unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan: the Lord thy God, who goeth before thy face, He shall cut off the nations.' [Dialogue 125 - 126]
It can't be coincidental that these are the two references to 'ish' (plural in the Abraham story) which are always cited in the 'god man' tradition. Esther J Hamori of Union Theological Seminary recently published her 2004 dissertation from New York University. It's title “When Gods Were Men,” is from the start of a Mesopotamian classic mythic poem. Esther Hamori plays on that line's purported meaning by devoting this book to documenting “when [Israel's] God became two men.”

Hamori devotes her attention to Gen 18:1-15 and 32:23-33 (per the Hebrew verse numbering), which each relate crucial encounters in the lives of the patriarchs Abraham and Jacob, respectively. She presents her case like a district attorney telling the jury what really happened. From the opening sentence in Chapter 1, she declares her interpretive thesis as fact, identifying an enigmatic figure in each narrative as being none other than Yahweh—with a mien so human as to hinder recognition as deity.

Three common aspects, says Hamori, warrant her studying the two Genesis stories together: 1) A character who appears “in person” is referred to as Yahweh/God; 2) The narrator designates him “as a ‘man’ . . . by the Hebrew word ’îš” (p. 1) or its functional plural, ’ănāšîm; 3) This figure engages in human physical activity – sitting and eating a meal, or participating in a wrestling match. Or as she puts it:
There are two biblical texts in which God appears to a patriarch in person and is referred to by the narrator as a “man,” both times by the Hebrew word îš. Both of these identifications of God as an îš are accompanied by graphic human description. As a result of the highly unusual nature of these depictions, each has been the object of widely varying interpretations. The figure defined as an îš who wrestles with Jacob (Genesis 32:23-33) has been identified in modern scholarship as an angel, a demon, a man, God, and various other alternatives. The three men )anašîm who visit Abraham, dine with him and announce the birth of his son (Genesis 18:1-15) have been understood as angels, gods, men, and more. However, while the identities of the )anašîm in each text have been much discussed, the texts sharing this unusual terminology have not been studied together with regards to this issue. It will be argued here that these two Genesis stories reflect the same phenomenon, that is, human theophany, or more specifically, the îš theophany.”
After noting that this type of the Ish theophany has been ignored by previous scholarship she notes:
The peculiarity of Genesis 18, to which von Rad refers, and the equal peculiarity of Genesis 32:23-33, have led to a variety of interpretations regarding the îš in each story. Some scholars working with one text or the other do not consider the îš to be God. While some have specific opposing interpretations, others are either inconsistent or ambiguous in their identifications of the figures. In a discussion of Genesis 32, for instance, von Rad refers to Jacob's “encounter with God,” then to “the heavenly being,” and then to “the demon whom Jacob took on... this nocturnal assailant was later considered to be Yahweh himself. In his work on )eloh|m, Joel Burnett refers to Jacob's opponent as “God... portrayed in concrete and anthropomorphic terms,” as well as “elohim's messenger,” and “a divine being.” Other scholars share similar mixed interpretations.

In other cases, scholars working with either text—such as Seebass, Wenham, Speiser, von Rad, and others—have interpreted the term îš metaphorically, placing the words “man” and “men” in quotes repeatedly throughout their discussions. Indeed, there are two texts which describe Yahweh as an îš in a metaphor or simile. In Exodus 15:3, Yahweh is called an îš milhama, “man of war” or “warrior,” and in Isaiah 42:13, he is said to be like an îš milhama. The îš terminology in Genesis 18:1-15 and 32:23-33, however, is not used metaphorically. On the contrary, these )anasîm are described in graphic, physical human terms. [Esther J. Hamori, When Gods Were Men, p. 1 - 3]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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Another reference which ends up back at our original citation:
And I continued: "It is again written by Moses, my brethren, that He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things, as you have already admitted, and may remain firm, persuaded by additional arguments. The word of God, therefore,[recorded] by Moses, when referring to Jacob the grandson of Abraham, speaks thus:
'And it came to pass, when the sheep conceived, that I saw them with my eyes in the dream: And, behold, the he-goats and the rams which leaped upon the sheep and she-goats were spotted with white, and speckled and sprinkled with a dun colour. And the Angel of God said to me in the dream, Jacob, Jacob. And I said, What is it, Lord? And He said, Lift up thine eyes, and see that the he-goats and rams leaping on the sheep and she-goats are spotted with white, speckled, and sprinkled with a dun colour. For I have seen what Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God who appeared to thee in Bethel, where thou anointedst a pillar and vowedst a vow unto Me. Now therefore arise, and get thee out of this land, and depart to the land of thy birth, and I shall be with thee. (Καὶ ἐγένετο ἡνίκα ἐκίσσων τὰ πρόβατα ἐν γαστρὶ λαμβάνοντα, καὶ εἶδον τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς αὐτὰ ἐν τῷ ὕπνῳ· καὶ ἰδοὺ οἱ τράγοι καὶ οἱ κριοί, ἀναβαίνοντες ἐπὶ τὰ πρόβατα καὶ τὰς αἶγας, διάλευκοι καὶ ποικίλοι καὶ σποδοειδεῖς ῥαντοί. καὶ εἶπέ μοι ὁ ἄγγελος τοῦ θεοῦ καθ' ὕπνους· Ἰακώβ, Ἰακώβ. 5 ἐγὼ δὲ εἶπον· Τί ἐστι, κύριε; καὶ εἶπεν· Ἀνάβλεψον τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς σου καὶ ἴδε τοὺς τράγους καὶ τοὺς κριοὺς ἀναβαίνοντας ἐπὶ τὰ πρόβατα καὶ τὰς αἶγας, διαλεύκους καὶ ποικίλους καὶ σποδοειδεῖς ῥαντούς· ἑώρακα γὰρ ὅσα σοι Λάβαν ποιεῖ. ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς ὁ ὀφθείς σοι ἐν τόπῳ θεοῦ, οὗ ἤλειψάς μοι ἐκεῖ στήλην καὶ ηὔξω ἐκεῖ εὐχήν. νῦν οὖν ἔξελθε καὶ ἀνάστηθι ἐκ τῆς γῆς ταύτης καὶ ἄπελθε εἰς τὴν γῆν τῆς γενέσεώς σου, καὶ ἔσομαι μετὰ σοῦ)
And again, in other words, speaking of the same Jacob, it thus says:
'And having risen up that night, he took the two wives, and the two women-servants, and his eleven children, and passed over the ford Jabbok; and he took them and went over the brook, and sent over all his belongings. But Jacob was left behind alone, and an Angel wrestled with him until morning. And He saw that He is not prevailing against him, and He touched the broad part of his thigh; and the broad part of Jacob's thigh grew stiff while he wrestled with Him. And He said, Let Me go, for the day breaketh. But he said, I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me. And He said to him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name; for thou hast prevailed with God, and with men shalt be powerful. And Jacob asked Him, and said, Tell me Thy name. But he said, Why dost thou ask after My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of that place Peniel, for I saw God face to face, and my soul rejoiced.' (Ἀναστὰς δὲ τὴν νύκτα ἐκείνην ἔλαβε τὰς δύο γυναῖκας καὶ τὰς δύο παιδίσκας καὶ τὰ ἕνδεκα παιδία αὐτοῦ καὶ διέβη τὴν διάβασιν τοῦ Ἰαβώχ, καὶ ἔλαβεν αὐτοὺς καὶ διέβη τὸν χειμάρρουν καὶ διεβίβασε πάντα τὰ αὐτοῦ. ὑπελείφθη δὲ Ἰακὼβ μόνος· καὶ ἐπάλαιεν ἄγγελος μετ' αὐτοῦ ἕως πρωΐ. εἶδε δὲ ὅτι δύναται πρὸς αὐτόν, καὶ ἥψατο τοῦ πλάτους τοῦ μηροῦ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐνάρκησε τὸ πλάτος τοῦ μηροῦ Ἰακὼβ ἐν τῷ παλαίειν αὐτὸν μετ' αὐτοῦ. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Ἀπόςτειλόν με· ἀνέβη γὰρ ὁ ὄρθρος. 7 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· Οὐ μή σε ἀποστείλω, ἂν μή με εὐλογήσῃς. εἶπε δὲ αὐτῷ· Τί τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐστίν; ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· Ἰακώβ. εἶπε δὲ αὐτῷ· Οὐ κληθήσεται τὸ ὄνομά σου Ἰακώβ, ἀλλὰ Ἰσραὴλ ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου· ὅτι ἐνίσχυσας μετὰ τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ μετὰ ἀνθρώπων δυνατὸς ἔσῃ. ἠρώτησε δὲ Ἰακὼβ καὶ εἶπεν· Ἀνάγγειλόν μοι τὸ ὄνομά σου. καὶ εἶπεν· Ἵνα τί τοῦτο ἐρωτᾷς τὸ ὄνομά μου; καὶ εὐλόγησεν αὐτὸν ἐκεῖ. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Ἰακὼβ τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ τόπου ἐκείνου Εἶδος θεοῦ· εἶδον γὰρ θεὸν πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, καὶ ἐχάρη ἡ ψυχή μου)
And again, in other terms, referring to the same Jacob, it says the following:
'And Jacob came to Luz, in the land of Canaan, which is Bethel, he and all the people that were with him. And there he built an altar, and called the name of that place Bethel; for there God appeared to him when he fled from the face of his brother Esau. And Deborah, Rebekah's nurse, died, and was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and Jacob called the name of it The Oak of Sorrow. And God appeared again to Jacob in Luz, when he came out from Mesopotamia in Syria, and He blessed him. And God said to him, Thy name shall be no more called Jacob, but Israel shall he thy name.' Ἦλθε δὲ Ἰακὼβ εἰς Λουζᾶ, ἥ ἐστιν εἰς γῆν Χαναάν, ἥ ἐστι Βαιθήλ, αὐτὸς καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαός, ὃς ἦν μετ' αὐτοῦ. καὶ ᾠκοδόμησεν ἐκεῖ θυσιαστήριον, καὶ ἐκάλεσε τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ τόπου ἐκείνου Βαιθήλ· ἐκεῖ γὰρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῷ ἀποδιδράσκειν ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἠσαῦ. ἀπέθανε δὲ Δεβόρρα, ἡ τροφὸς Ῥεβέκκας, κατωτέρω Βαιθὴλ ὑπὸ τὴν βάλανον, καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Ἰακὼβ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Βάλανον πένθους. ὤφθη δὲ ὁ θεὸς Ἰακὼβ ἔτι ἐν Λουζᾶ, ὅτε παρεγένετο ἐν Μεσοποταμίᾳ τῆς Συρίας, καὶ εὐλόγησεν αὐτόν. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός· Τὸ ὄνομά σου Ἰακὼβ οὐ κληθήσεται ἔτι, ἀλλὰ Ἰσραὴλ ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου.
He is called God, and He is and shall be God." (θεὸς καλεῖται καὶ θεός ἐστι καὶ ἔσται).

And when all had agreed on these grounds, I continued: "Moreover, I consider it necessary to repeat to you the words which narrate how He who is both Angel and God and Lord, and who appeared as a man to Abraham, and who wrestled in human form with Jacob, was seen by him when he fled from his brother Esau (καὶ ἐν ἰδέᾳ ἀνδρὸς τῷ Ἀβραὰμ φανεὶς καὶ ἐν ἰδέᾳ ἀνθρώπου αὐτῷ τῷ Ἰακὼβ παλαίσας , ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι εἰπεῖν ὑμῖν λογιζόμενος, λέγω). They are as follows:
'And Jacob went out from the well of the oath, and went toward Charran. And he lighted on a spot, and slept there, for the sun was set; and he gathered of the stones of the place, and put them under his head. And he slept in that place; and he dreamed, and, behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, whose top reached to heaven; and the angels of God ascended and descended upon it. And the Lord stood above it, and He said, I am the Lord, the God of Abraham thy father, and of Isaac; be not afraid: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; and thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and shall be extended to the west, and south, and north, and east: and in thee, and in thy seed, shall all families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, keeping thee in every way wherein thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done all that I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and said, Surely the Lord is in this place, and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. And Jacob rose up in the morning, and took the stone which he had placed under his head, and he set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it; and Jacob called the name of the place The House of God, and the name of the city formerly was Ulammaus.'" (Καὶ ἐξῆλθεν Ἰακὼβ ἀπὸ τοῦ φρέατος τοῦ ὅρκου καὶ ἐπορεύθη εἰς Χαράν. καὶ ἀπήντησε τόπῳ καὶ ἐκοιμήθη ἐκεῖ· ἔδυ γὰρ ὁ ἥλιος. καὶ ἔλαβεν ἀπὸ τῶν λίθων τοῦ τόπου καὶ ἔθηκε πρὸς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐκοιμήθη ἐν τῷ τόπῳ ἐκείνῳ καὶ ἐνυπνιάσθη· καὶ ἰδοὺ κλῖμαξ ἐστηριγμένη ἐν τῇ γῇ, ἧς ἡ κεφαλὴ ἀφικνεῖτο εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν, καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι τοῦ θεοῦ ἀνέβαινον καὶ κατέβαινον ἐπ' αὐτῆς, ὁ δὲ κύριος ἐστήρικτο ἐπ' αὐτήν. 12 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· Ἐγώ εἰμι κύριος, ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραάμ, τοῦ πατρός σου, καὶ Ἰσαάκ. μὴ φοβοῦ· ἡ γῆ, ἐφ' ἧς σὺ καθεύδεις ἐπ' αὐτῆς, σοὶ δώσω αὐτὴν καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου· καὶ ἔσται τὸ σπέρμα σου ὡς ἡ ἄμμος τῆς γῆς, καὶ πλατυνθήσεται εἰς θάλασσαν καὶ νότον καὶ βορρᾶν καὶ ἀνατολάς, καὶ ἐνευλογηθήσονται ἐν σοὶ πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐν τῷ σπέρματί σου. καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μετὰ σοῦ, διαφυλάσσων σε ἐν ὁδῷ πάσῃ ᾗ ἂν πορευθῇς, καὶ ἀποστρέψω σε εἰς τὴν γῆν ταύτην, ὅτι οὐ μή σε ἐγκαταλίπω ἕως τοῦ ποιῆσαί με πάντα ὅσα ἐλάλησά σοι. 13 καὶ ἐξηγέρθη Ἰακὼβ ἐκ τοῦ ὕπνου αὐτοῦ, καὶ εἶπεν ὅτι Ἔστι κύριος ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τούτῳ, ἐγὼ δὲ οὐκ ᾔδειν. καὶ ἐφοβήθη, καὶ εἶπεν· Ὡς φοβερὸς ὁ τόπος οὗτος. οὐκ ἔστι τοῦτο ἀλλ' ἢ οἶκος τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ αὕτη ἡ πύλη τοῦ οὐρανοῦ. καὶ ἀνέστη Ἰακὼβ τῷ πρωΐ, καὶ ἔλαβε τὸν λίθον ὃν ὑπέθηκεν ἐκεῖ πρὸς κεφαλῆς αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔστησεν αὐτὸν στήλην καὶ ἐπέχεε τὸ ἔλαιον ἐπὶ τὸ ἄκρον αὐτοῦ. καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Ἰακὼβ τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ τόπου Οἶκος θεοῦ· καὶ Οὐλαμμάους ἦν τὸ ὄνομα τῇ πόλει τὸ πρότερον)
When I had spoken these words, I continued: "Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man, and who appeared in human form to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses." (πῶς ὁ αὐτὸς οὗτος καὶ ἄγγελος καὶ θεὸς καὶ κύριος καὶ ἀνὴρ καὶ ἄνθρωπος Ἀβραὰμ καὶ Ἰσαὰκ φανείς, ἐν πυρὶ φλογὸς ἐκ βάτου πέφανται καὶ ὡμίλησε τῷ Μωυσεῖ. κἀκείνων ἡδέως καὶ ἀκαμάτως καὶ προθύμως ἀκούειν λεγόντων, ἐπέφερον). And after they said they would listen cheerfully, patiently, and eagerly, I went on: "These words are in the book which bears the title of Exodus: 'And after many days the king of Egypt died, and the children of Israel groaned by reason of the works;' and so on until,'Go and gather the elders of Israel, and thou shalt say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared to me, saying, I am surely beholding you, and the things which have befallen you in Egypt.'" In addition to these words, I went on: "Have you perceived, sirs, that this very God whom Moses speaks of as an Angel that talked to him in the flame of fire, declares to Moses that He is the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob?"

Then Trypho said, "We do not perceive this from the passage quoted by you, but[only this], that it was an angel who appeared in the flame of fire, but God who conversed with Moses; so that there were really two persons in company with each other, an angel and God, that appeared in that vision."

I again replied, "Even if this were so, my friends, that an angel and God were together in the vision seen by Moses, yet, as has already been proved to you by the passages previously quoted, it will not be the Creator of all things that is the God that said to Moses that He was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, but it will be He who has been proved to you to have appeared to Abraham, ministering to the will of the Maker of all things, and likewise carrying into execution His counsel in the judgment of Sodom; so that, even though it be as you say, that there were two--an angel and God--he who has but the smallest intelligence will not venture to assert that the Maker and Father of all things, having left all supercelestial matters, was visible on a little portion of the earth."

And Trypho said, "Since it has been previously proved that He who is called God and Lord, and appeared to Abraham, received from the Lord, who is in the heavens, that which He inflicted on the land of Sodom, even although an angel had accompanied the God who appeared to Moses, we shall perceive that the God who communed with Moses from the bush was not the Maker of all things, but He who has been shown to have manifested Himself to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob; who also is called and is perceived to be the Angel of God the Maker of all things, because He publishes to men the commands of the Father and Maker of all things."

And I replied, "Now assuredly, Trypho, I shall show that, in the vision of Moses, this same One alone who is called an Angel, and who is God, appeared to and communed with Moses. For the Scripture says thus:'The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the bush; and he sees that the bush bums with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside and see this great sight, for the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he is turning aside to behold, the Lord called to him out of the bush.' In the same manner, therefore, in which the Scripture calls Him who appeared to Jacob in the dream an Angel, then[says] that the same Angel who appeared in the dream spoke to him, saying,'I am the God that appeared to thee when thou didst flee from the face of Esau thy brother;'and[again] says that, in the judgment which befell Sodom in the days of Abraham, the Lord had inflicted the punishment of the Lord who[dwells] in the heavens;--even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other[God].

"I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power[proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave. For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word[which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled[another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: 'If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men. Now, therefore, O son, hear me. Blessed is the man who shall listen to me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways, watching daily at my doors, observing the posts of my ingoings. For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and will has been prepared by the Lord. But they who sin against me, trespass against their own souls; and they who hate me love death.'

"And the same sentiment was expressed, my friends, by the word of God[written] by Moses, when it indicated to us, with regard to Him whom it has pointed out, that God speaks in the creation of man (τῆς ποιήσεως τοῦ ἀνθρώπου) with the very same design, in the following words:'Let Us make man after our image and likeness (Ποιήσωμεν ἄνθρωπον κατ' εἰκόνα ἡμετέραν καὶ καθ' ὁμοίωσιν). And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creeping things that creep on the earth.

And God created man: after the image of God did He create him (καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον, κατ' εἰκόνα θεοῦ ἐποίησεν αὐτόν); male and female created He them. And God blessed them, and said, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and have power over it. And that you may not change the words just quoted, and repeat what your teachers assert,--either that God said to Himself,'Let Us make,'just as we, when about to do something, oftentimes say to ourselves,'Let us make;'or that God spoke to the elements, to wit, the earth and other similar substances of which we believe man was formed,'Let Us make,' (ἐξ ὧν νοοῦμεν τὸν ἄνθρωπον γεγονέναι, θεὸν εἰρηκέναι Ποιήσωμεν)

I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that conversed with some one who was numerically distinct from Himself, and also a rational Being. These are the words:'And God said, Behold, Adam has become as one of us, to know good and evil.' In saying, therefore,'as one of us,'[Moses] has declared that[there is a certain] number of persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two.

For I would not say that the dogma of that heresy which is said to be among you is true, or that the teachers of it can prove that[God] spoke to angels, or that the human frame was the workmanship of angels (ἀγγέλων ποίημα ἦν τὸ σῶμα τὸ ἀνθρώπειον). But this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him (ἀλλὰ τοῦτο τὸ τῷ ὄντι ἀπὸ τοῦ πατρὸς προβληθὲν γέννημα πρὸ πάντων τῶν ποιημάτων συνῆν τῷ πατρί, καὶ τούτῳ ὁ πατὴρ προσομιλεῖ); even as the Scripture by Solomon has made clear, that He whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten as a Beginning before all His creatures and as Offspring by God, who has also declared this same thing in the revelation made by Joshua the son of Nave (καὶ δι' ἀποκαλύψεως τῆς γεγενημένης Ἰησοῦ τῷ τοῦ Ναυῆ τοῦτο αὐτὸ εἰπόντος). Listen, therefore, to the following from the book of Joshua, that what I say may become manifest to you; it is this: 'And it came to pass, when Joshua was near Jericho, he lifted up his eyes, and sees a man (ἄνθρωπον) standing over against him. And Joshua approached to Him, and said, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And He said to him, I am Captain of the Lord's host: now have I come (Ἐγὼ ἀρχιστράτηγος δυνάμεως κυρίου, νῦν παραγέγονα). And Joshua fell on his face on the ground, and said to Him, Lord, what commandest Thou Thy servant? And the Lord's Captain says to Joshua, Loose the shoes off thy feet; for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And Jericho was shut up and fortified, and no one went out of it. And the Lord said to Joshua, Behold, I give into thine hand Jericho, and its king,[and] its mighty men.'" [Dialogue 58 - 62]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

Post by stephan happy huller »

Doesn't this prove my point? Justin was part of a (Marcionite) tradition that identified Jesus as the man of God (= ishu) who popped in and out of the Pentateuch (and Joshua) narrative. This is by far the most plausible mythicist argument. Is there any doubt of this? Better than anything any other 'mythicist' came up with before me (and I don't even claim to be a mythicist). Here you have what the earliest Christians actually believed. Everything else is nonsense.
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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Justin's gospel sounds remarkably similar to Marcion's:
And you remember from other words also spoken by David, and which I have mentioned before, how it is declared that He would come forth from the highest heavens, and again return to the same places, in order that you may recognise Him as God coming forth from above, and man living among men; and that He will again appear, and they who pierced Him shall see Him, and shall bewail Him

καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἄλλων ὧν προεῖπον ὁμοίως διὰ Δαυεὶδ λελέχθαι λόγων, ὅτι ἀπ' ἄκρων τῶν οὐρανῶν προέρχεσθαι ἔμελλεν καὶ πάλιν εἰς τοὺς αὐτοὺς τόπους ἀνιέναι ἐμηνύετο, ἀναμνήσθητε, ἵνα καὶ θεὸν ἄνωθεν προελθόντα καὶ ἄνθρωπον ἐν ἀνθρώποις γενόμενον γνωρίσητε, καὶ πάλιν ἐκεῖνον παραγενησόμενον, ὃν ὁρᾶν μέλλουσι καὶ κόπτεσθαι οἱ ἐκκεντήσαντες αὐτόν. [ibid 75]
We can see the hand of the orthodox redactor in the alleged response from the Jew. Justin himself says as we just saw, that Jesus descended from heaven a man, but the corrected text transforms the phrase καὶ ἄνθρωπον ἐν ἀνθρώποις γενόμενον into "καὶ ἄνθρωπον ἐν ἀνθρώποις γενόμενον"' ' but now applies it to a claim of a virgin birth which came later:
And Trypho answered, "The Scripture has not, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,' but, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son,' and so on, as you quoted. But the whole prophecy refers to Hezekiah, and it is proved that it was fulfilled in him, according to the terms of this prophecy. Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower. And you ought to feel ashamed when you make assertions similar to theirs, and rather[should] say that this Jesus was born man of men (καὶ μᾶλλον ἄνθρωπον ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενόμενον). And if you prove from the Scriptures that He is the Christ, and that on account of having led a life conformed to the law, and perfect, He deserved the honour of being elected to be Christ,[it is well]; but do not venture to tell monstrous phenomena, lest you be convicted of talking foolishly like the Greeks." [ibid 75]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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He appeared, and was man, but not of human seed (φαινόμενον μὲν καὶ γενόμενον ἄνθρωπον μηνύει, οὐκ ἐξ ἀνθρωπίνου δὲ σπέρματος ὑπάρχοντα δηλοῖ). And the same thing he proclaimed in mystery when he speaks of this stone which was cut out without hands. For the expression 'it was cut out without hands' signified that it is not a work of man (ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνθρώπινον ἔργον), but[a work] of the will of the Father and God of all things, who brought Him forth. And when Isaiah says, 'Who shall declare His generation?' he meant that His descent could not be declared. Now no one who is a man of men (ἄνθρωπος ὢν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων) has a descent that cannot be declared (ἀνεκδιήγητον ἔχει τὸ γένος). And when Moses says that He will wash His garments in the blood of the grape, does not this signify what I have now often told you is an obscure prediction, namely, that He had blood, but not from men; just as not man, but God (ἀλλ' οὐκ ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, ὃν τρόπον τὸ τῆς ἀμπέλου αἷμα οὐκ ἄνθρωπος ἐγέννησεν ἀλλ' ὁ θεός), has begotten the blood of the vine? And when Isaiah calls Him the Angel of mighty l counsel, did he not foretell Him to be the Teacher of those truths which He did teach when He came[to earth]? [ibid 76]
It is worth noting that the Marcionites took interest in the same prophesy from Daniel as De Recta in Deum Fide points out, the Marcionite Megetheus notes:
Meg. Daniel declared (Dan.2:34,35): "You have seen, even beheld a stone that is cut from a mountain without hands, and striking an image and its feet were as dust, which is blown in the wind" . But the stone shall be the kingdom of a glorious God, and the image indicates the kingdom [upon] the earth. From whence I show that it is the Christ announced by the law and the prophets, who has not yet come. For if he has arrived, by no means is there a different kingdom upon the earth, as Daniel indicated. But from him shall every kingdom of his enjoy safety, enduring but not fading - the kingdom of that Christ - who by the law and prophets was announced should come. [De Recta 25]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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And hence I think that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ spoke well when He summed up all righteousness and piety in two commandments. They are these: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy strength, and thy neighbour as thyself.' For the man who loves God with all the heart, and with all the strength, being filled with a God-fearing mind, will reverence no other god; and since God wishes it, he would reverence that angel who is beloved by the same Lord and God. And the man who loves his neighbour as himself will wish for him the same good things that he wishes for himself, and no man will wish evil things for himself. Accordingly, he who loves his neighbour would pray and labour that his neighbour may be possessed of the same benefits as himself. Now nothing else is neighbour to man than that similarly-affectioned and reasonable being--man (πλησίον δὲ ἀνθρώπου οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἐστὶν ἢ τὸ ὁμοιοπαθὲς καὶ λογικὸν ζῶον, ὁ ἄνθρωπος) [ibid 93]
Clement similarly identifies the supernatural Jesus explicitly with the 'neighbor':
So that if one loves himself, he loves the Lord, and confesses to salvation that he may save his soul. Though you die for your neighbour out of love, and regard the Saviour as our πλησίον (for God who saves is said to be nigh in respect to what is saved); you do so, choosing death on account of life, and suffering for your own sake rather than his. (Strom. 4.7)
The understanding is somehow connected to a mystical rite in Alexandria:
The renunciation, then, and selling (πωλῆσαι) of all possessions (ὐπάρχοντα), is to be understood as expressly spoken of the passions of the soul (τῶν ψυχῶν παθῶν διειρημένον). [Quis Dives Salvetur 14]

And this is the import of “Sell what you have, and give to the poor, and come, follow Me” — that is, follow what is said by the Lord. Some say that by what “you have” He designated the things in the soul, of a nature not akin to it, though how these are bestowed on the poor they are not able to say. For God dispenses to all according to desert, His distribution being righteous. Despising, therefore, the possessions which God apportions to you in your magnificence, comply with what is spoken by me; haste to the ascent of the Spirit, being not only justified by abstinence from what is evil, but in addition also perfected, by Christlike beneficence. In this instance He convicted the man, who boasted that he had fulfilled the injunctions of the law, of not loving his neighbour; and it is by beneficence that the love which, according to the gnostic ascending scale, is Lord of the Sabbath, proclaims itself. We must then, according to my view, have recourse to the word of salvation neither from fear of punishment nor promise of a gift, but on account of the good itself. Such, as do so, stand on the right hand of the holy place. [Strom. 4.6]

Again when he says, "If you would be perfect, sell your possessions and give to the poor," he convicts the man who boasts that he has kept all the commandments~ from his youth up. For he had not fulfilled "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Only then was he taught by the Lord who wished to make him perfect, to give for love's sake. For such an one—one who fulfils the command, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”—is perfect. For this is the true luxury — the treasured wealth. But that which is squandered on foolish lusts is to be reckoned waste, not expenditure. For God has given to us, I know well, the liberty of use, but only so far as necessary; and He has determined that the use should be common [Strom 3.6]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

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For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and angel, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering (καὶ ἱερεὺς καὶ θεὸς καὶ κύριος καὶ ἄγγελος καὶ ἄνθρωπος καὶ ἀρχιστράτηγος καὶ λίθος καὶ παιδίον γεννώμενον καὶ παθητὸς γενόμενος πρῶτον), then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures. [ibid 34]

And Trypho said, "Sir, it were good for us if we obeyed our teachers, who laid down a law that we should have no intercourse with any of you, and that we should not have even any communication with you on these questions. For you utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud; then that he became man, was crucified, and ascended up to heaven, and comes again to earth, and ought to be worshipped." [ibid 38]

And Trypho said, "We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man (οὐκ ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἀνθρώπου), this appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish."

And I replied to this, "I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the[requirements] of God, but[ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho," I continued,"[the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and[nothing more] is proved[than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends," I said, "of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men (ἄνθρωπον δὲ ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενόμενον ἀποφαινόμενοι); with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have[now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself."

And Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man (οἱ λέγοντες ἄνθρωπον γεγονέναι αὐτὸν), and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. For we all expect that Christ will be a man of men (ἄνθρωπον ἐξ ἀνθρώπων), and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if this man appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as man of men ) ἄνθρωπον μὲν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων); but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that this man is not He[the Christ]." [ibid 48 - 49]

[Justin says] "And that expression which was committed to writing by Moses, and prophesied by the patriarch Jacob, namely, 'He shall wash His garments with wine, and His vesture with the blood of the grape,' signified that He would wash those that believe in Him with His own blood. For the Holy Spirit called those who receive remission of sins through Him, His garments; amongst whom He is always present in power, but will be manifestly present at His second coming. That the Scripture mentions the blood of the grape has been evidently designed, because Christ derives blood not from the seed of man (οὐκ ἐξ ἀνθρώπου σπέρματος), but from the power of God (ἀλλ' ἐκ τῆς τοῦ θεοῦ δυνάμεως). For as God, and not man, has produced the blood of the vine, so also[the Scripture] has predicted that the blood of Christ would be not of the seed of man, but of the power of God (ὃν γὰρ τρόπον τὸ τῆς ἀμπέλου αἷμα οὐκ ἄνθρωπος ἐγέννησεν ἀλλὰ θεός, οὕτως καὶ τὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αἷμα οὐκ ἐξ ἀνθρωπείου γένους ἔσεσθαι, ἀλλ' ἐκ θεοῦ δυνάμεως προεμήνυσεν). But this prophecy, sirs, which I repeated, proves that Christ is not man of men, begotten in the ordinary course of humanity (οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ Χριστὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, κατὰ τὸ κοινὸν τῶν ἀνθρώπων γεννηθείς)." [ibid 54]

Then Trypho said when I was silent, "That Scripture compels us to admit this, is manifest; but there is a matter about which we are deservedly at a loss--namely, about what was said to the effect that[the Lord] ate what was prepared and placed before him by Abraham; and you would admit this."

I answered, "It is written that they ate; and if we believe that it is said the three ate, and not the two alone--who were really angels, and are nourished in the heavens, as is evident to us, even though they are not nourished by food similar to that which mortals use--(for, concerning the sustenance of manna which supported your fathers in the desert, Scripture speaks thus, that they ate angels'food):[if we believe that three ate], then I would say that the Scripture which affirms they ate bears the same meaning as when we would say about fire that it has devoured all things; yet it is not certainly understood that they ate, masticating with teeth and jaws. So that not even here should we be at a loss about anything, if we are acquainted even slightly with figurative modes of expression, and able to rise above them."

And Trypho said, "It is possible that[the question] about the mode of eating may be thus explained:[the mode, that is to say,] in which it is written, they took and ate what had been prepared by Abraham: so that you may now proceed to explain to us how this God who appeared to Abraham, and is minister to God the Maker of all things, being born of the Virgin, became man, of like passions with all, as you said previously."

Then I replied, "Permit me first, Trypho, to collect some other proofs on this head, so that you, by the large number of them, may be persuaded of[the truth of] it, and thereafter I shall explain what you ask." [ibid 57]

When I had spoken these words, I continued: "Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man, and who appeared in human form to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses." And after they said they would listen cheerfully, patiently, and eagerly, I went on: "These words are in the book which bears the title of Exodus: 'And after many days the king of Egypt died, and the children of Israel groaned by reason of the works;' and so on until,'Go and gather the elders of Israel, and thou shalt say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared to me, saying, I am surely beholding you, and the things which have befallen you in Egypt.'" In addition to these words, I went on: "Have you perceived, sirs, that this very God whom Moses speaks of as an Angel that talked to him in the flame of fire, declares to Moses that He is the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob?"

Then Trypho said, "We do not perceive this from the passage quoted by you, but[only this], that it was an angel who appeared in the flame of fire, but God who conversed with Moses; so that there were really two persons in company with each other, an angel and God, that appeared in that vision."

I again replied, "Even if this were so, my friends, that an angel and God were together in the vision seen by Moses, yet, as has already been proved to you by the passages previously quoted, it will not be the Creator of all things that is the God that said to Moses that He was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, but it will be He who has been proved to you to have appeared to Abraham, ministering to the will of the Maker of all things, and likewise carrying into execution His counsel in the judgment of Sodom; so that, even though it be as you say, that there were two--an angel and God--he who has but the smallest intelligence will not venture to assert that the Maker and Father of all things, having left all supercelestial matters, was visible on a little portion of the earth."

And Trypho said, "Since it has been previously proved that He who is called God and Lord, and appeared to Abraham, received from the Lord, who is in the heavens, that which He inflicted on the land of Sodom, even although an angel had accompanied the God who appeared to Moses, we shall perceive that the God who communed with Moses from the bush was not the Maker of all things, but He who has been shown to have manifested Himself to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob; who also is called and is perceived to be the Angel of God the Maker of all things, because He publishes to men the commands of the Father and Maker of all things."

And I replied, "Now assuredly, Trypho, I shall show that, in the vision of Moses, this same One alone who is called an Angel, and who is God, appeared to and communed with Moses. For the Scripture says thus:'The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the bush; and he sees that the bush bums with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside and see this great sight, for the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he is turning aside to behold, the Lord called to him out of the bush.' In the same manner, therefore, in which the Scripture calls Him who appeared to Jacob in the dream an Angel, then[says] that the same Angel who appeared in the dream spoke to him, saying,'I am the God that appeared to thee when thou didst flee from the face of Esau thy brother;'and[again] says that, in the judgment which befell Sodom in the days of Abraham, the Lord had inflicted the punishment of the Lord who[dwells] in the heavens;--even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other[God]. [ibid]


And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said." Then I repeated once more all that I had previously quoted from Exodus, about the vision in the bush, and the naming of Jesus, and continued: "And do not suppose, sirs, that I am speaking superfluously when I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases (ἄνδρα δέ ποτε καὶ ἄνθρωπον καλεῖσθαι, ἐπειδὴ ἐν μορφαῖς τοιαύταις σχηματιζόμενος φαίνεται αἷσπερ βούλεται ὁ πατήρ); and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. [ibid 128]
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Re: Moses as 'His Man' (Ishu = אישו) in Marcion and Marqe

Post by stephan happy huller »

So after speaking with my favorite professor of Samaritanism - I R M Boid of Monash University - I thought I should clarify where the theory is at:

1. we'd have to begin with the identification of איש as the heavenly stranger power throughout the Pentateuch. This angelic power is recognized as an integral part of the Samaritan interpretation of the text as Benny Tsedaka notes in his recent English translation.
2. The sections identified by Samaritans as referencing this power include Genesis 32:24 (wrestling with Jacob), 37:12 - 15 (directing Joseph to find his brothers), Exodus 2:19 - 21 (Moses recognized as an angel),
3. Philo (On the Giants) similarly distinguishes between a 'man born of earth' and a 'man born of heaven.' Philo further defines the 'man born of heaven' as the 'man born of God' who "are priests and prophets, who have not thought fit to mix themselves up in the constitutions of this world, and to become cosmopolites, but who having raised themselves above all the objects of the mere outward senses, have departed and fixed their views on that world which is perceptible only by the intellect, and have settled there, being inscribed in the state of incorruptible incorporeal ideas." The heavenly man is identified with Abraham in the passage.
3. As I will argue in my next paper, the Marcionite NT had a shorter 1 Corinthians affixed before the gospel, its central 'antithesis' was that between the same heavenly and earthly man. It's purpose was to identify Jesus for the audience.
4. The purpose of Christianity it would seem was to establish a priesthood as 'men of God.' One must suspect that this was according to some sort of baptism of the dead rite.
5. The gospel was written in Greek and the figure of איש is preserved with the nomen sacra ΙΣ
6. The figure of the heavenly man or man of God was referenced Marcionites as ISU a Greek rendering of אישו and part of the familiar Samaritan identification of Moses as the man of God. For instance, from the Middle Prayers in Cowley a commentary on the Shemini Atzeret we read:

וביום השמיני עצרת
דאמר על יד אישו
תהיה לכם
כל מלאכת עבדה לא תעשו

On the eighth day a solemn assembly
said by his man
You must do no ordinary work on that day.

Indeed there are about ten other instances of the basic formula על יד משה אישו (= by his man Moses p. 95, 428) דשלח משה אישו (p. 102, 104). The Middle Prayers are the earliest Hebrew prayers dated in some cases to the seventh century I am told.
Everyone loves the happy times
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