By proto-orthodox I mean the earliest documents associated with those who were later reputed to have been the "fathers" of orthodoxy -- Irenaeus, Tertullian...MrMacSon wrote:neilgodfrey wrote: Valentinians had one view of Paul via certain letters.Not off hand, sorry. Check out Elaine Pagels on the letters or follow up the Valentinians.
- Do you have more information about those letters?
neilgodfrey wrote: It is second century that we also have first evidence of the collating of Paul's letters into a single volume -- representing a certain interest and view of Paul.Possibly. So the story goes. Or it may have existed prior to Marcion. I am not sure Marcion was the first to know Paul. Roger Parvus has presented some interesting arguments --- http://vridar.org/other-authors/roger-p ... istianity/
- Marcion?
neilgodfrey wrote: Then there are the rival Marcionite and proto-orthodox versions of Paul's letters.
- What are the proto-orthodox versions? Where do they first appear? and, with whom?
Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
MrMacSon wrote:neilgodfrey wrote: Valentinians had one view of Paul via certain letters.
- Do you have more information about those letters?
neilgodfrey wrote: Not off hand, sorry. Check out Elaine Pagels on the letters, or follow up the Valentinians.
- Cheers.
MrMacSon wrote:neilgodfrey wrote: It is second century that we also have first evidence of the collating of Paul's letters into a single volume -- representing a certain interest and view of Paul.
- Marcion?
neilgodfrey wrote: Possibly. So the story goes. Or it may have existed prior to Marcion. I am not sure Marcion was the first to know Paul. Roger Parvus has presented some interesting arguments --- http://vridar.org/other-authors/roger-p ... istianity/
- Cheers. Robert M Price also has some interesting arguments in The Amazing Colossal Apostle.
MrMacSon wrote:neilgodfrey wrote: Then there are the rival Marcionite and proto-orthodox versions of Paul's letters.
- What are the proto-orthodox versions? Where do they first appear? and, with whom?
neilgodfrey wrote: By proto-orthodox I mean the earliest documents associated with those who were later reputed to have been the "fathers" of orthodoxy -- Irenaeus, Tertullian...
- Cheers. Whether Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc really are the "fathers of orthodoxy" is an issue, too.
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context
It looks as though Robert Gnuse was not the first to use the term 'prophetic historian' in regard to Josephus.
Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (1996)
- Thus the ingredients were present for Josephus to write his histories as a prophetic historian. Josephus knew that the best histories were written by prophets.
Revealed Histories: Techniques for Ancient Jewish and Christian Historiography
By Robert Hall (1991)
Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (1996)
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
W.B. Yeats
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context
You don't remember? I attempted to discuss Hall's understanding, too, and how you had completely misunderstood the concept. I have read both works (and others) and what you understand by prophetic historian bears little resemblance to what these authors explain.maryhelena wrote:It looks as though Robert Gnuse was not the first to use the term 'prophetic historian' in regard to Josephus.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DyS ... an&f=false
- Thus the ingredients were present for Josephus to write his histories as a prophetic historian. Josephus knew that the best histories were written by prophets.
Revealed Histories: Techniques for Ancient Jewish and Christian Historiography
By Robert Hall (1991)
Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (1996)
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context
What I did in the post you are quoting is provide the dates for the two book....pointing out that the term 'prophetic historian' was used by Hall prior to it's use by Gnuse. I did so in order to make clear that this term has scholarly usage and is not a 'hobby horse' of mine.neilgodfrey wrote:You don't remember? I attempted to discuss Hall's understanding, too, and how you had completely misunderstood the concept. I have read both works (and others) and what you understand by prophetic historian bears little resemblance to what these authors explain.maryhelena wrote:It looks as though Robert Gnuse was not the first to use the term 'prophetic historian' in regard to Josephus.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DyS ... an&f=false
- Thus the ingredients were present for Josephus to write his histories as a prophetic historian. Josephus knew that the best histories were written by prophets.
Revealed Histories: Techniques for Ancient Jewish and Christian Historiography
By Robert Hall (1991)
Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (1996)
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
W.B. Yeats
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context
The way you use the term has nothing in common with the way Gnuse, Hall and others use the term; your idiosyncratic repetition and application of it does certainly come across as a hobby horse no person can or dare challenge.maryhelena wrote: I did so in order to make clear that this term has scholarly usage and is not a 'hobby horse' of mine.
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context
neilgodfrey wrote:The way you use the term has nothing in common with the way Gnuse, Hall and others use the term; your idiosyncratic repetition and application of it does certainly come across as a hobby horse no person can or dare challenge.maryhelena wrote: I did so in order to make clear that this term has scholarly usage and is not a 'hobby horse' of mine.
Neil give it a rest!
Amazing that the term 'prophetic historian' can generate so much heat.....
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
The Psalms of Solomon were raised by several people in the discussion and since I have just read another's perspective on that text (Pss Sol) I thought I'd quote it here. It's by Kenneth E. Pompykala, in his published thesis, The Davidic Dynasty Tradition in Early Judaism: Its History and Significance for Messianism 1995. After acknowledging Geze Vermes claimed that the Pss Sol "represent 'mainstream Jewish ideology'" he comments:neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:14 amThis topic is not about "Jewish prophecies of the messiah's arrival". It is not about the second century Bar Kochba rebellion. Nor is it even about popular beliefs and attitudes at the time of the 66-73 CE Jewish war.
It is about the historical evidence we have or don't have (that is the question) for:
- widespread/popular expectations
- of the appearance of a messiah figure to liberate Judea from Rome
- in the early years of the first century, let's say up to around year 30 CE
Further discussions follow re the Eighteen Benedictions also utilized by Vermes. Then.....There are, however, several weaknesses to Vermes' argument. First, his claim that the Psalms of Solomon represent mainstream Judaism lacks support.22 Indeed, it is questionable whether one can speak at all about mainstream Judaism during the first century BCE. Secondly, his contention that prayer embodies the non-academic and most normative religious ideology cannot be used to argue that davidic messianism was the dominant expectation among Palestinian Jews. All that can be asserted is that prayer, based on its popular use, may reflect the non-academic and normative religious ideology for people who used those prayers.23 How widely the Psalms of Solomon were used in the Second Temple period is not known. Furthermore, the didactic prayers in the Psalms of Solomon probably reflect more the ideas of learned circles than popular ideology.24 . . . .
Footnotes:Finally, other evidence about popular religious sentiment in the early Jewish period, such as one finds in Josephus, makes no mention of a dominant expectation for a davidic messiah....
22. The community associated with the Psalms of Solomon is not certain, although a good case can be made for the Pharisees; but Pharisaical ideology cannot be labelled "mainstream Jewish" in the first century BCE.
23. Similarly, prayers from Qumran often embody ideas particular to the Qumran community, no one would claim that these prayers, simply because they are prayers, reflect "mainstream Jewish ideology."
24. Cf. D. Flusser, "Psalms, Hymns and Prayers," Jewish Writings of the Second Temple Period (CRINT 2:2; Assen: Van Gorcum/Philadelphia: Fortress, 1984) 573, who writes, "It is difficult to assume that they were written for liturgical purposes or later became part of any liturgy." Cf. also R. A. Horsley and J. S. Hanson, Bandits, Prophets, and Messiahs (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1985) 102-106, who attribute Psalms of Solomon to learned groups.
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
If both the Qumran community and the Pharisees had significant messianic expectations then this does imply that such ideas were reasonably widespread.
One possible problem with this thread is that it maybe blurred two rather different ideas of widespread messianic expectation.
a/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a coming Messiah ? (probably yes)
b/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a soon coming Messiah ? (probably no)
Andrew Criddle
One possible problem with this thread is that it maybe blurred two rather different ideas of widespread messianic expectation.
a/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a coming Messiah ? (probably yes)
b/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a soon coming Messiah ? (probably no)
Andrew Criddle
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C
I thought the same thing Andrew when I glanced at this thread earlier this morning. What's 'widespread' mean? Widespread across traditions? Widespread geographically? Widespread across time?
I am not sure that Jews ALWAYS expected a messiah or were always EXPECTING the messiah. But it seems from Josephus at least that something about the time of the Jewish War (i.e. the transference of the age of Aries to Pisces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age) there was a messianic interest among Jews. Of course such an interest needs a continuing astrological fixation (something not true today for instance). It also only occurs every 2000 years approximately.
So if it holds true that the 'early first century' messianic interest was connected to the idea of astrological eras (which most scholars tie to 'the beginning of the Common Era' in one way or other) the period was unique (or at least tied to 2000+ year cycles). Indeed if we believe Josephus and similar stories the messianic expectation was easily transferred to Vespasian so it must have been generic enough to allow for Josephus's 'prophesy.'
I think it should be framed like this:
1. the Jews of the early first century were associated with astrology
2. the turn of the Common Era was associated with the change of an astrological age
3. it was generally expected that the world 'changed' with each new astrological age
4. one of those changes associated with new ages was a change of ruler
In other words, the messianic expectation was subordinate or a component of a larger astrological interest and this is why Josephus was able to sublimate the messianic expectation into propaganda for Vespasian.
I am not sure that Jews ALWAYS expected a messiah or were always EXPECTING the messiah. But it seems from Josephus at least that something about the time of the Jewish War (i.e. the transference of the age of Aries to Pisces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age) there was a messianic interest among Jews. Of course such an interest needs a continuing astrological fixation (something not true today for instance). It also only occurs every 2000 years approximately.
So if it holds true that the 'early first century' messianic interest was connected to the idea of astrological eras (which most scholars tie to 'the beginning of the Common Era' in one way or other) the period was unique (or at least tied to 2000+ year cycles). Indeed if we believe Josephus and similar stories the messianic expectation was easily transferred to Vespasian so it must have been generic enough to allow for Josephus's 'prophesy.'
I think it should be framed like this:
1. the Jews of the early first century were associated with astrology
2. the turn of the Common Era was associated with the change of an astrological age
3. it was generally expected that the world 'changed' with each new astrological age
4. one of those changes associated with new ages was a change of ruler
In other words, the messianic expectation was subordinate or a component of a larger astrological interest and this is why Josephus was able to sublimate the messianic expectation into propaganda for Vespasian.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote