Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: https://www.academia.edu/11105056/Josep ... vian_House
[/list]

Methinks it looks very much like Josephus was as much a prophetic historian as he was a historian.....Yep, context matters.....
Of course he saw himself as a prophet but that's not the same as saying he was a "prophetic historian". There is a significant difference. But you have refused to address what the scholarly literature explains about the meaning of Josephus seeing himself as a prophet and a "historian" and how those concepts impact his work and continue to persist with your own idiosyncratic view to support your own hobby horse theory.
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maryhelena
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:

Pages 111 to 130. Mason stresses the need to understand the writings of Josephus in their cultural and literary context and from the perspective of the author's personal interests and power matrix. To correctly understand and interpret any line in Josephus one must enter into the literary, cultural and political world of Josesphus himself. If you are looking for a single paragraph where he presents from A to Z his argument on a particular point you won't find it. That's why I have given you the context and understanding of Josephus as Mason for most part presents it in order for a historian to understand the function and nature of the ambiguous oracle in context.

Sorry that is a new agenda for many and won't be welcome. Too many certainties will be threatened. No room for mind-reading; no room for assuming that Josephus is writing like a modern historian.
OK - so - Steve Mason does not, in A History of the Jewish War A.D. 66-74, deal with the 'ambiguous oracle' of Josephus War Book 6 ch.5.
what the....???!!! how did you arrive at that conclusion! I just explained that I think he dealt with it more extensively and thoroughly than any other historian I've encountered.
You might well think that Steve Mason dealt with War book 6 ch.5.par 4 - but you provided no page reference to this Josephus quotation.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: https://www.academia.edu/11105056/Josep ... vian_House
[/list]

Methinks it looks very much like Josephus was as much a prophetic historian as he was a historian.....Yep, context matter
That article dates from 1994. The latest work by Mason is 2016. He discusses at length the development and change in his methods and understanding of historical interpretation of ancient sources in his 2016 work.

But even in the 1994 article he does not in any way support your own understanding and interpretation of Josephus and what being a "prophet" meant to Josephus.
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maryhelena
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote:
maryhelena wrote: https://www.academia.edu/11105056/Josep ... vian_House
[/list]

Methinks it looks very much like Josephus was as much a prophetic historian as he was a historian.....Yep, context matter
That article dates from 1994. The latest work by Mason is 2016. He discusses at length the development and change in his methods and understanding of historical interpretation of ancient sources in his 2016 work.

But even in the 1994 article he does not in any way support your own understanding and interpretation of Josephus and what being a "prophet" meant to Josephus.
Steve Mason: ''Josephus saw himself as a pacifistic prophetic figure, trying to
convey this message to others''. (from the above linked article)
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maryhelena
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

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neilgodfrey wrote:
maryhelena wrote: https://www.academia.edu/11105056/Josep ... vian_House
[/list]

Methinks it looks very much like Josephus was as much a prophetic historian as he was a historian.....Yep, context matters.....
Of course he saw himself as a prophet but that's not the same as saying he was a "prophetic historian". There is a significant difference. But you have refused to address what the scholarly literature explains about the meaning of Josephus seeing himself as a prophet and a "historian" and how those concepts impact his work and continue to persist with your own idiosyncratic view to support your own hobby horse theory.
Josephus, re Steve Mason, viewed himself as a prophet. Josephus was also a historian.

I really think, Neil, that you need to drop this 'hobby horse' approach to ideas that you don't care for.

-------------------------------
Just to make something very clear - the term 'prophetic historican', a term you seem to have so much trouble with - comes from Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis
  • (Josephus) He observes that his father, Matthias, belonged to the first twenty-four priestly classes (Life), and through his mother he was connected to the old royal Hasmonean or Maccabean family (Life 8). These priestly and royal credentials not only provided him with respect but gave credibility to his mission as a prophetic historian.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: Just to make something very clear - the term 'prophetic historican', a term you seem to have so much trouble with - comes from Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis
  • (Josephus) He observes that his father, Matthias, belonged to the first twenty-four priestly classes (Life), and through his mother he was connected to the old royal Hasmonean or Maccabean family (Life 8). These priestly and royal credentials not only provided him with respect but gave credibility to his mission as a prophetic historian.
I earlier attempted to discuss Gnuse's understanding with you and have no intention of torturing myself by repeating the exercise.
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maryhelena
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Re: Josephus's "ambiguous prophecy" in context

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote:
maryhelena wrote: Just to make something very clear - the term 'prophetic historican', a term you seem to have so much trouble with - comes from Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis
  • (Josephus) He observes that his father, Matthias, belonged to the first twenty-four priestly classes (Life), and through his mother he was connected to the old royal Hasmonean or Maccabean family (Life 8). These priestly and royal credentials not only provided him with respect but gave credibility to his mission as a prophetic historian.
I earlier attempted to discuss Gnuse's understanding with you and have no intention of torturing myself by repeating the exercise.
:popcorn:
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MrMacSon
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote: There are other grounds for questioning the role of that prophecy in the thinking of Paul. No need to place him in the second century -- too many problems arise. We can place writings attributed to him in the second century perhaps, but much harder to put Paul himself there ...
  • Why is it harder to place Paul in the 2nd century? What problems arise?
neilgodfrey wrote:
There was a time of vying for Paul's authority. Paul's reputation was such that many groups1 sought to use him as the source of their rival claims.

Hence it is more reasonable to assume that Paul was believed to have operated prior to that time, and was not their contemporary.

Time was needed between the figure of Paul and the widespread rival claims attributed to him.
  • 1 Which groups sought to use Paul? Who or what were those groups' rivals?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote: There are other grounds for questioning the role of that prophecy in the thinking of Paul. No need to place him in the second century -- too many problems arise. We can place writings attributed to him in the second century perhaps, but much harder to put Paul himself there ...
  • Why is it harder to place Paul in the 2nd century? What problems arise?
neilgodfrey wrote:
There was a time of vying for Paul's authority. Paul's reputation was such that many groups1 sought to use him as the source of their rival claims.

Hence it is more reasonable to assume that Paul was believed to have operated prior to that time, and was not their contemporary.

Time was needed between the figure of Paul and the widespread rival claims attributed to him.
  • 1 Which groups sought to use Paul? Who or what were those groups' rivals?
Our canonical Acts represents one attempt to co-opt Paul.

The Pastoral epistles another -- though may be closely related to above.

Then there's the audience for Acts of Paul and Thecla.

Valentinians had one view of Paul via certain letters.

It is second century that we also have first evidence of the collating of Paul's letters into a single volume -- representing a certain interest and view of Paul.

Then there are the rival Marcionite and proto-orthodox versions of Paul's letters.

So we have competing Acts and competing epistles -- all claiming Paul's authority.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Valentinians had one view of Paul via certain letters.
  • Do you have more information about those letters?
neilgodfrey wrote: It is second century that we also have first evidence of the collating of Paul's letters into a single volume -- representing a certain interest and view of Paul.
  • Marcion?
neilgodfrey wrote: Then there are the rival Marcionite and proto-orthodox versions of Paul's letters.
  • What are the proto-orthodox versions? Where do they first appear? and, with whom?
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