Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

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MrMacSon
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote: MrMacson wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Daniel 9:24-26 is commonly applied to Jesus outside of the NT"?
Stuff like this, for example:

http://www.bible.ca/H-70-weeks-daniel.htm
Cheers. I note -
160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Daniel 9:24-27; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel) ... (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, bk 1, chap 21)

160AD Tertullian "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel ." (An Answer to the Jews 8.) (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)

200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) ... "21. For this reason, then, the angel says to Daniel, "Seal the words, for the vision is until the end of the time." But to Christ it was not said "seal," but "loose" the things bound of old; in order that, by His grace, we might know the will of the Father, and believe upon Him whom He has sent for the salvation of men, Jesus our Lord. He says, therefore, "They shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall;" which in reality took place. For the people returned and built the city, and the temple, and the wall round about. Then he says: "After threescore and two weeks the times will be fulfilled, and one week will make a covenant with many; and in the midst (half) of the week sacrifice and oblation will be removed, and in the temple will be the abomination of desolations." 22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such ..." (The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar)

200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On The "Iron Kingdom" of Daniel 7)

220 AD Sextus Julius Africanus "On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel. 1. ...That the passage speaks then of the advent of Christ, who was to manifest Himself after seventy weeks, is evident ... For Nehemiah his cup-bearer besought him, and received the answer that Jerusalem should be built. And the word went forth commanding these things; for up to that time the city was desolate. For when Cyrus, after the seventy years' captivity, gave free permission to all to return who desired it, some of them under the leadership of Jesus [the] high priest and Zorobabel, and others after these under the leadership of Esdra, returned, but were prevented at first from building the temple, and from surrounding the city with a wall, on the plea that that had not been commanded. 2. It remained in this position, accordingly, until Nehemiah and the reign of Artaxerxes, and the 115th year of the sovereignty of the Persians. And from the capture of Jerusalem that makes 185 years. And at that time King Artaxerxes gave order that the city should be built; and Nehemiah being despatched, superintended the work, and the street and the surrounding wall were built, as had been prophesied. And reckoning from that point, we make up seventy weeks to the time of Christ."

225AD Origen "The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5). (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)

403AD Sulpcius Severus (On Daniel's Seventy Weeks) "But from the restoration of the temple to its destruction, which was completed by Titus under Vespasian, when Augustus was consul, there was a period of four hundred and eighty-three years. That was formerly predicted by Daniel, who announced that from the restoration of the temple to its overthrow there would elapse seventy and nine weeks. Now, from the date of the captivity of the Jews until the time of the restoration of the city, there were two hundred and sixty years." (p. 254, ch. 11, Sacred History)

420 AD Cyril of Alexandria "Now three score and nine weeks of years contain four hundred and eighty-three years. He said, therefore, that after the building of Jerusalem, four hundred and eighty-three years having passed, and the rulers having failed, then cometh a certain king of another race, in whose time the Christ is to be born." (Cyril of Alexandria, 420 AD)
Jesus is only mentioned twice on that page - http://www.bible.ca/H-70-weeks-daniel.htm - and, in each of of those mentions, He seems to be disconnected from commentary about Christ.

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John2
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by John2 »

MrMacson,

Josephus works for me. I appreciate Neil's objections, but I'm comfortable interpreting what Josephus says about the Fourth Philosophy in a messianic light and that "about that time" means during the first century CE (since the sect was founded in 6 CE) and not specifically 66 CE. And I see the people that he mentions in War 2.259 in between these two time periods (in the 50's CE) as being messianic.
These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.
But I factor in the DSS as well, which strike me as being very messianic and interpret many OT verses about the Messiah that are applied to Jesus, such as 4Q174, which is paleographically dated to the early first century CE, so it was at least arguably copied then. And 4Q521, which also mentions the Messiah and resembles a saying of Jesus in the NT, is carbon dated 50 BCE to 80 CE according to this book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=w6-oB ... ng&f=false
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MrMacSon
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote: MrMacson,

Josephus works for me. I appreciate Neil's objections, but I'm comfortable interpreting what Josephus says about the Fourth Philosophy in a messianic light and that "about that time" means during the first century CE (since the sect* was founded in 6 CE) and not specifically 66 CE. And I see the people that he mentions in War 2.259 in between these two time periods (in the 50's CE) as being messianic.
These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of Divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.
    • * What sect are you referring to?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by neilgodfrey »

John2 wrote:Neil wrote:
Daniel 9:24-26, the source of supposed interest in messianic time-tables, is absent from Qumran and the Gospels.
Mk. 13:14/Mt. 24:15 at least refer to the abomination of the desolation, which is mentioned in Dan. 9:27, and Daniel 9:24-26 is commonly applied to Jesus outside of the NT.
All the more curious, then, that there appears to have been so little interest in Daniel 9:24-26 among those responsible for the DSS, yes? There is no discussion of 9:24-26 as a pointer to a messiah to come.
John2 wrote:And Collins notes regarding 11QMelchizedek that:
The citation [of Daniel] in 11QMelchizedek is more intriguing. It is introduced as a secondary quotation to clarify the "messenger" ... who is mentioned in Isa 52:7: "And the messenger i the anointed of the spir[it] as Dan[iel] said [..." (11QMelch col. 2:18). The (partial) restoration of the name Daniel is not in doubt, but it is unfortunate that the actual citation is not preserved. There are two verses in Daniel that mention a [messiah]: Dan. 9:25 refers to the coming of an "anointed prince" ... The following verse refers to another "anointed one" ... Most commentators restore Dan. 9:25 to 11QMelchizedek. An exception is Michael Wise, who opts for Dan. 9:26.

https://books.google.com/books?id=SSDEB ... EL&f=false


And notice that Cook, Wise and Abegg in their commentary on the scrolls point out that in that missing passage that would have contained the "anointed one" from Dan 9:24-26 would not have referred to some "Davidic" or conquering-liberating "messiah" as we understand the term, but rather the DSS context makes it clear the "anointed one" of Daniel 9 was understood as a messenger prophet in the DSS text -- a prophet delivering a message that had come from other prophets.

This vi[sitation] is the Day of [Salvation] that He has decreed [. . . through Isai]ah the prophet [concerning all the captives,] inasmuch as Scripture sa[ys, “How] beautiful upon the mountains are the fee[t of] the messeng[er] who [an]nounces peace, who brings [good] news, [who announces salvat]ion, who [sa]ys to Zion “Your [di]vine being [reigns”.” (Isa. 52:7).] This scripture’s interpretation: “the mountains” [are] the prophet, they w[ho were sent to proclaim God’s truth and to] proph[esy] to all I[srael.] And “the messenger” is the Anointed of the Spir[it,] of whom Dan[iel] spoke; [“After the sixty-two weeks, an Anointed One shall be cut off” (Dan. 9:26) The “messenger who brings] good news, who announ[ces Salvation”] is the one of whom it is wri[tt]en; [“to proclaim the year of the LORD`s favor, the day of the vengeance of our God;] to comfort all who mourn” (Isa. 61:2) (Wise, Abegg and Cook’s translation and commentary, pp. 592-93. The square brackets indicate various types of damage to the scroll. I have greyed these sections.)


Wise, Abegg and Cook’s commentary:

The messenger, also designated “Anointed of the Spirit” (Hebrew messiah), is conceived of as coming with a message from God, a message explicating the course of history (that is, a declaration of when the End shall come) and teaching about God’s truths.
(p. 591)
So we can discard 11QMelchizedek from this question.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by neilgodfrey »

John2 wrote: Off the top of my head, there must be at least a dozen OT verses about the Messiah that are interpreted in the DSS, many of which are applied to Jesus in the NT.

For examples, both 4Q174 and Hebrews (1:5 and 5:5) cite 2 Sam. 7:14:
[And] YHWH de[clares] to you that he will build you a house. I will raise up your seed after you and establish the throne of his kingdom [for ev]er. I will be a father to him and he will be a son to me. This [refers to the] Branch of David, who will arise with the Interpreter of the law who [will rise up] in Zi[on in] the [l]ast days, as it is written: I will raise up the hut of David which has fallen. This (refers to) the hut of David which has fall[en, w]hich he will raise up to save Israel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6RfYx ... ez&f=false
This is a classic instance of where we bring our presuppositions into the text. You just said that there must be many verses about the "messiah" in the DSS yet the example you provide to support this claim does not contain the word for "messiah". I do not deny that the passage may be speaking about a messiah, but that needs to be argued, not assumed. Keep in mind that many passages in the prophets speak of God acting directly to restore Israel. If he does act through someone not everyone he acts through is necessarily going to be a messiah in our sense of the word, meaning a conquering liberator. Or maybe they will all be messiahs of different types, etc.

So we have all of those questions to navigate. But let's suppose we conclude that this passage is describing our messianic figure (I think a pretty good argument can be made that it is -- better than just assuming). How can such a passage demonstrate for us that there was a widespread anticipation of such a figure to appear very soon, literally?

Surely it is a huge gulf between a passage such as that and a large scale social movement. Rather, given the relative fewness of messianic passages in the DSS it is reasonable to conclude that the question remained more of an esoteric one for a few literate devouts. It would be different if we had a relative abundance of such references in the surviving writings with plenty of discussions of "coming soon" "now in this generation" etc. But what we see is indication that messianism was not the major preoccupation of those associated with Qumran.

John2 wrote:Acts 15:15-18 also cites this fallen tent of David verse.
Acts was written in the mid-second century. If you disagree with that then at least you have to concede that it cannot be insisted dogmatically that it belonged to the first century and even less that it was a true historical record of sayings from the 30s CE.
John2 wrote:And Milgrom notes that:
Paleographically, the manuscript of 4Q174 is dated early in the first century C.E.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ROama ... ry&f=false
Though spin has said regarding this that, "Palaeography only tells you when a text was copied in relation to other works," 4Q174 was at least being copied in the first century CE, according to the paleographic dating.
One swallow does not make a summer, especially when all the other birds have just flown south for the winter.
John2 wrote:And 4QTestimonia cites Dt. 18:18-19 and the star prophecy from Numbers, both of which are applied to Jesus in the NT or by Christians (e.g., Acts 3:22).

Vanderkam notes that:
The first three paragraphs are united around the theme of future leaders: the prophet like Moses, a star who rises from Israel (the Davidic messiah apparently), and the priests (one like Levi, but his descendants as well).

https://books.google.com/books?id=i2i5h ... ah&f=false
So in my view the DSS are as messianic as the NT.
What ratio of DSS remnants are "messianic" compared with the totality of what we have? That's the first question of some significance.

The next question is how we can justify recreating a widespread social movement on the basis of those very few texts dated somewhere within a 200 year span.
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neilgodfrey
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Some perspective

Post by neilgodfrey »

neilgodfrey wrote:
John2 wrote: So in my view the DSS are as messianic as the NT.
What ratio of DSS remnants are "messianic" compared with the totality of what we have? That's the first question of some significance.

The next question is how we can justify recreating a widespread social movement on the basis of those very few texts dated somewhere within a 200 year span.
Some perspective. Tick off or highlight the writings in the list below that contain discussions of a conquering/liberating messiah to come; then consider the chances of finding that number with mention of a messiah without any widespread messianic movement beyond the community, or even if there was no particularly vibrant interest in messianism within the "community" or whoever the scrolls and fragments represent.


Qumran Cave 1
1QIsaa
1QIsab
1QS
1QpHab
1QM
1QHa
1QapGen
CTLevi
1QGen
1QExod
1QpaleoLev
1QDeuta
1QDeutb
1QJudg
1QSam
1QIsab
1QEzek
1QPsa
1QPsb
1QPsc
1QPhyl
1QpMic
1QpZeph
1QpPs
1QJuba
1QJubb
1QNoah
1QapGen
1QTLevi
1QDM
1QEnGiantsa
1QEnGiantsb
1Q25
1Q26
1QMyst
1Q28
1QSa
1QSb
1Q29
1Q30
1Q31
1QNJ
1QM
1QLitPr
1QHb
1Q36-40
1Q41-70
1QDana
1QDanb

Qumran Cave 2
2QGen
2QExoda
2QExodb
2QExodc
2QpaleoLev
2QNuma
2QNumb
2QNumc
2QNumd
2QDeuta
2QDeutb
2QDeutc
2QJer
2QPs
2QJob
2QRutha
2QRuthb
2QSir
2QJuba
2QJubb
2QapMoses
2QapDavid
2QapProph
2QNJ
2Q25
2QEnGiants
2Q27
2Q28 2Q29
2Q30 2Q31
2Q32 2Q33

Qumran Cave 3
3QEzek
3QPs
3QLam
3QpIsa
3QJub
3QHymn
3QTJudah
3QUnid
3QSectarian text
3QUnc
3QUncA-B
3QUncC
3QCopScr

Qumran Cave 4
4QGen-Exoda
4QGenb
4QGenc
4QGend
4QGene
4QGenf
4QGeng
4QGenh
4QGenh2
4QGenh-para
4QGenh-title
4QGenj
4QGenk
4QExodl
4QpaleoGenm
4QExodb
4QExodc
4QExodd
4QExode
4QExod-Levf
4QExodg
4QExodh
4QExodj
4QExodk
4QpaleoExodm
4QLevNuma
4QLevb
4QLevc
4QLevg 4QLevd
4QNumLeva
4QNumb
4QDeuta
4QDeutb
4QDeutc
4QDeutd
4QDeute
4QDeutf
4QDeutg
4QDeuth
4QDeuti
4QDeutj
4QDeutk1
4QDeutk2
4QDeutk3
4QDeutl
4QDeutm
4QDeutn
4QDeuto
4QDeutp
4QDeutq
4QpaleoDeutr
4QpaleoDeuts
4QJosha
4QJoshb
4QJudga
4QJudgb
4QSama
4QSamb
4QSamc
4QKgs
4QIsaa
4QIsab
4QIsac
4QIsad
4QIsae
4QIsaf
4QIsag
4QIsah
4QIsai
4QIsaj
4QIsak
4QIsal
4QIsam
4QIsan
4QIsao
4QIsap
4QIsaq
4QIsar
4QJera
4QJerb
4QJerc
4QJerd
4QJere
4QPsa
4QPsb
4QPsc
4QPsd
4QPse
4QPsf
4QPsg
4QPsh
4QPsj
4QPsk
4QPsl
4QPsm
4QPsn
4QPso
4QPsp
4QPsq
4QPsr
4QPss
4QPst
4QPsu
4QPsv
4QPsw
4QPsx
4QJoba
4QJobb
4QpaleoJobc
4QProva
4QProvb
4QRutha
4QRuthb
4QCanta
4QCantb
4QCantc
4QQoha
4QQohb
4QEzra
4QChr
4QLXXLeva
pap4QLXXLevb
4QLXXNumb
4QLXXDeut
4QPhyla
4QPhylb
4QPhylc
4QPhyld
4QPhyle
4QPhylf
4QPhylg
4QPhylh
4QPhyli
4QPhylj
4QPhylk
4QPhyll
4QPhylm
4QPhyln
4QPhylo
4QPhylp
4QPhylq
4QPhylr
4QPhyls
4QPhylt
4QPhylu
4QMeza
4QMezb
4QMezc
4QMezd
4QMeze
4QMezf
4QMezg
4QtgLev
4QtgJob
4QRPa
4QOrdinancesa
4QVisSam
4QpIsaiaha
4QpIsaiahb
4QTest
4QCommentary on Gen A
4QCommentary on Gen C
4QCommentary on Gen D
4QRPb
4QRPc
4QRPd
4QRPe
4QapocrJosha
4QapocrJoshb
4QpapGen or papJub
4QTempleScrollb
4QGenn

Qumran Cave 5
5QDeut
5QKgs
5QIsa
5QAmos
5QPs
5QLama
5QLamb
5QPhyl
5QToponyms
5QapocMal
5QS
5QD
5QRégle
5QCurses
5QNJ
5QUnid
5QUnc

Qumran Cave 6
6QpaleoGen
6QpaleoLev
pap6QDeut
pap6QKgs
pap6QPs
6QCant
pap6QDan
pap6QEnGiants
pap6QapocrSam/Kgs
pap6QProph
6QAllegory
6QapProph
6QPriestProph
6Qapoc
6QD
pap6QBen
6QCalDoc
pap6QHymn
6QGen
6QDeut
6QfrgProph
pap6QUnidA
pap6QUnidA ar
6QUnidB
6QpapProv

Qumran Cave 7


Qumran Cave 8
8QGen
8QPs
8QPhyl
8QMez
8QHymn

Qumran Cave 9
9Q1

Qumran Cave 10

Qumran Cave 11
11QpaleoLeva
11QLevb
11QDeut
11QEzek
11Q5
11QPsa
11QPsb
11QPsc
11QPsd
11QPse
11QtgJob
11QapocrPs
11QJub
11QMelch
11Q Sefer ha-Milmah
11QHymnsa
11QHymnsb
11QShirShabb
11QNJ
11QTa
11QTb
11QTc
11Q Unidentified

Wadi Murabba'at Cave 1
Mur1
MurDeut
MurIsa
MurPhyl
MurMez
Mur6
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rakovsky
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Re: Some perspective

Post by rakovsky »

neilgodfrey wrote:Tick off or highlight the writings in the list below that contain discussions of a conquering/liberating messiah to come; then consider the chances of finding that number with mention of a messiah without any widespread messianic movement beyond the community, or even if there was no particularly vibrant interest in messianism within the "community" or whoever the scrolls and fragments represent.


Qumran Cave 1
1QIsaa
1QIsab
1QS
1QpHab
1QM
1QHa
1QapGen
CTLevi
1QGen
1QExod
1QpaleoLev
1QDeuta
1QDeutb
1QJudg
1QSam
1QIsab
1QEzek
1QPsa
1QPsb
1QPsc
1QPhyl
1QpMic
1QpZeph
1QpPs
1QJuba
1QJubb
1QNoah
1QapGen
1QTLevi
1QDM
1QEnGiantsa
1QEnGiantsb
1Q25
1Q26
1QMyst
1Q28
1QSa
1QSb
1Q29
1Q30
1Q31
1QNJ
1QM
1QLitPr
1QHb
1Q36-40
1Q41-70
1QDana
1QDanb

Qumran Cave 2
2QGen
2QExoda
2QExodb
2QExodc
2QpaleoLev
2QNuma
2QNumb
2QNumc
2QNumd
2QDeuta
2QDeutb
2QDeutc
2QJer
2QPs
2QJob
2QRutha
2QRuthb
2QSir
2QJuba
2QJubb
2QapMoses
2QapDavid
2QapProph
2QNJ
2Q25
2QEnGiants
2Q27
2Q28 2Q29
2Q30 2Q31
2Q32 2Q33

Qumran Cave 3
3QEzek
3QPs
3QLam
3QpIsa
3QJub
3QHymn
3QTJudah
3QUnid
3QSectarian text
3QUnc
3QUncA-B
3QUncC
3QCopScr

Qumran Cave 4
4QGen-Exoda
4QGenb
4QGenc
4QGend
4QGene
4QGenf
4QGeng
4QGenh
4QGenh2
4QGenh-para
4QGenh-title
4QGenj
4QGenk
4QExodl
4QpaleoGenm
4QExodb
4QExodc
4QExodd
4QExode
4QExod-Levf
4QExodg
4QExodh
4QExodj
4QExodk
4QpaleoExodm
4QLevNuma
4QLevb
4QLevc
4QLevg 4QLevd
4QNumLeva
4QNumb
4QDeuta
4QDeutb
4QDeutc
4QDeutd
4QDeute
4QDeutf
4QDeutg
4QDeuth
4QDeuti
4QDeutj
4QDeutk1
4QDeutk2
4QDeutk3
4QDeutl
4QDeutm
4QDeutn
4QDeuto
4QDeutp
4QDeutq
4QpaleoDeutr
4QpaleoDeuts
4QJosha
4QJoshb
4QJudga
4QJudgb
4QSama
4QSamb
4QSamc
4QKgs
4QIsaa
4QIsab
4QIsac
4QIsad
4QIsae
4QIsaf
4QIsag
4QIsah
4QIsai
4QIsaj
4QIsak
4QIsal
4QIsam
4QIsan
4QIsao
4QIsap
4QIsaq
4QIsar
4QJera
4QJerb
4QJerc
4QJerd
4QJere
4QPsa
4QPsb
4QPsc
4QPsd
4QPse
4QPsf
4QPsg
4QPsh
4QPsj
4QPsk
4QPsl
4QPsm
4QPsn
4QPso
4QPsp
4QPsq
4QPsr
4QPss
4QPst
4QPsu
4QPsv
4QPsw
4QPsx
4QJoba
4QJobb
4QpaleoJobc
4QProva
4QProvb
4QRutha
4QRuthb
4QCanta
4QCantb
4QCantc
4QQoha
4QQohb
4QEzra
4QChr
4QLXXLeva
pap4QLXXLevb
4QLXXNumb
4QLXXDeut
4QPhyla
4QPhylb
4QPhylc
4QPhyld
4QPhyle
4QPhylf
4QPhylg
4QPhylh
4QPhyli
4QPhylj
4QPhylk
4QPhyll
4QPhylm
4QPhyln
4QPhylo
4QPhylp
4QPhylq
4QPhylr
4QPhyls
4QPhylt
4QPhylu
4QMeza
4QMezb
4QMezc
4QMezd
4QMeze
4QMezf
4QMezg
4QtgLev
4QtgJob
4QRPa
4QOrdinancesa
4QVisSam
4QpIsaiaha
4QpIsaiahb
4QTest
4QCommentary on Gen A
4QCommentary on Gen C
4QCommentary on Gen D
4QRPb
4QRPc
4QRPd
4QRPe
4QapocrJosha
4QapocrJoshb
4QpapGen or papJub
4QTempleScrollb
4QGenn

Qumran Cave 5
5QDeut
5QKgs
5QIsa
5QAmos
5QPs
5QLama
5QLamb
5QPhyl
5QToponyms
5QapocMal
5QS
5QD
5QRégle
5QCurses
5QNJ
5QUnid
5QUnc

Qumran Cave 6
6QpaleoGen
6QpaleoLev
pap6QDeut
pap6QKgs
pap6QPs
6QCant
pap6QDan
pap6QEnGiants
pap6QapocrSam/Kgs
pap6QProph
6QAllegory
6QapProph
6QPriestProph
6Qapoc
6QD
pap6QBen
6QCalDoc
pap6QHymn
6QGen
6QDeut
6QfrgProph
pap6QUnidA
pap6QUnidA ar
6QUnidB
6QpapProv

Qumran Cave 7


Qumran Cave 8
8QGen
8QPs
8QPhyl
8QMez
8QHymn

Qumran Cave 9
9Q1

Qumran Cave 10

Qumran Cave 11
11QpaleoLeva
11QLevb
11QDeut
11QEzek
11Q5
11QPsa
11QPsb
11QPsc
11QPsd
11QPse
11QtgJob
11QapocrPs
11QJub
11QMelch
11Q Sefer ha-Milmah
11QHymnsa
11QHymnsb
11QShirShabb
11QNJ
11QTa
11QTb
11QTc
11Q Unidentified

Wadi Murabba'at Cave 1
Mur1
MurDeut
MurIsa
MurPhyl
MurMez
Mur6
Generally those look like copies of the Tanakh.
There are alot that are Messianic, but offhand, the ones especially so would be Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Hosea. On the other thread I quoted from the JewFaq website with chapters in Tanakh Jews consider Messianic.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

neilgodfrey wrote:I quoted some passages from Green in my OP but here are a few more extracts taken from the linked blog post. (The reference is

Green, William Scott. 1987. “Introduction: Messiah in Judaism: Rethinking the Question.” In Judaisms and Their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era, edited by Jacob Neusner, William Scott Green and Ernest S. Frerichs, 1-13. Cambridge, Melbourne; Cambridge University Press.)

The Myth’s Origins

So what has led to today’s situation where it is taken for granted that
“In the time of Jesus the Jews were awaiting a Messiah.” (Mowinckel, He That Cometh, p. 3)

“from the first century B.C.E., the Messiah was the central figure in the Jewish myth of the future” (Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1979), p. xxvii.

“belief in the Messiah [is one of the four] good gifts which the people of Israel have left as an inheritance to the entire world.” (Klausner, Messianic Idea, p. 13)
:mrgreen: only a quick search
This myth sounds a bit German to me.

Reinhold Bobertag 1853
da die Hoffnung auf den Messias unter den Juden weit verbreitet
(the hope of the messiah was widespread under the Jews)
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rakovsky
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by rakovsky »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: This myth sounds a bit German to me.

Reinhold Bobertag 1853
da die Hoffnung auf den Messias unter den Juden weit verbreitet
(the hope of the messiah was widespread under the Jews)
Messiah ben David is something nonChristian Jews and Christians typically have agreed exists in the Bible based on our oldest records on that question.. Interesting considering how often those two religions disagree.
The Targums were Aramaic translations of the Hebrew OT, that apparently circulated during the time of Jesus (e.g. there are Targums of Job and Lev. in the Dead Sea Scrolls). Although these documents were written down AFTER the NT period, these represent typically VERY ancient understandings of OT passages. If the Targums interpreted OT passages messianically, this generally indicates that ancient Jewry had messianic expectations. We also know that Targums circulated BEFORE the NT times, since some of them were found at Qumran.

...source: S.H. Levey, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Monograph of the Hebrew Union College 2: Cincinnati: 1974.--cited with chart at NWNTI:108.].
...
2 Sam 23.1-5: "...Said David, the son of Jesse, said the man who was anointed to the Messianic Kingship by the Memra of the God of Jacob...God spoke to me...and He decided to appoint for me a king, he is the Messiah, who is destined to arise and rule in the fear of the Lord..."

http://www.osyministries.com/index.php? ... s&Itemid=1
[/quote]

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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maryhelena
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote:This topic is not about "Jewish prophecies of the messiah's arrival". It is not about the second century Bar Kochba rebellion. Nor is it even about popular beliefs and attitudes at the time of the 66-73 CE Jewish war.

It is about the historical evidence we have or don't have (that is the question) for:
  • widespread/popular expectations
  • of the appearance of a messiah figure to liberate Judea from Rome
  • in the early years of the first century, let's say up to around year 30 CE
The ''early years of the first century'', around 30 c.e., are your ground zero for lack of evidence for ''widespread/popular expectations'' for ''the appearance of a messiah figure to liberate Judeans from Rome''. However, the lack of evidence does not negate the possibility that such expectation existed. After all, the Jews, like any people living under foreign occupation, (the Irish for many a long year....) would hope that liberation/freedom would one day arrive.

That said, why would there be a widespread/popular expectation in the early first century when the disastrous early such attempt at liberation, 40/37 b.c.e., had so tragically ended? That earlier event required outside help - what foreign power in the early first century would have been prepared to help the Judeans take on the might of Rome? Hope might well be eternal but when dealing with matters of a practical nature timing is everything....

Regarding the early first century; while evidence for widespread/popular expectations for a messiah figure to liberate the Jews is lacking - understandably in view of the events of 37 b.c.e. - the messiah idea itself is not confined to a political liberator.

http://www.livius.org/articles/religion ... -messiahs/?

Thus, the question, in regard to the early first century, is what sort of messiah figure would have meaning to Jews searching the OT? Seeming, due to lack of evidence regarding a messianic liberator at that time, it would be a Prince of Peace type messiah figure. That is, of course, the type of figure that the gospels portray. (the undercurrent of zealot/rebel characteristic belong to the messiah figure of 40/37 b.c.e. i.e. the gospels have fused the characteristics of two Jewish messianic types into the gospel figure of Jesus - the Davidic and the Joseph messiah types).

Who was the Jewish liberator who secured around three and a half years of freedom from Rome and paid the price via a Roman execution? Antigonus. That is straightforward Hasmonean/Jewish history.

The identity of a historical figure living in the early first century who could be recognized as a Joseph type Prince of Peace - well that is the ninety nine dollar question...

One place to start a search is Josephus and his use of the OT Joseph story in his account of Agrippa I......
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
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