neilgodfrey wrote:Tick off or highlight the writings in the list below that contain discussions of a conquering/liberating messiah to come; then consider the chances of finding that number with mention of a messiah without any widespread messianic movement beyond the community, or even if there was no particularly vibrant interest in messianism within the "community" or whoever the scrolls and fragments represent.
Generally those look like copies of the Tanakh.
There are alot that are Messianic, but offhand, the ones especially so would be Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Hosea. On the other thread I quoted from the JewFaq website with chapters in Tanakh Jews consider Messianic.
You're just guessing. We know exactly which ones contain mentions of a messiah and which ones are "messianic". Just check a website listing and identifying each.
If you read my OP you might suspect that my point is that the relatively very scant few references to a messiah in the DSS far from suggest we had a messianic cult here.
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andrewcriddle wrote:The alternative to a belief in (reasonably) widespread messianic expectation in the early first century seems to be that the Jewish war and fall of Jerusalem generated messianic expectations that were previously lacking; and that these expectations were back projected by later writers into the early first century.
Do we have any positive evidence that the aftermath of the Jewish war encouraged messianic expectations ?
Andrew Criddle
I don't know that we do.
Incidentally, Steve Mason's recent study, A History of the Jewish War A.D. 66-74, addresses the evidence we have for the origins of the war and finds the simplest explanation without any need for messianic motivations at all. But that's another topic.
I don't think we have any explicit evidence for political messianism as such until the time of the Bar Kochba war -- or am I overlooking something?
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John T wrote:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you [Moses] from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:18-20
What does that passage tell us about messianic movements?
It does not speak of a messiah. Certainly not a political-military deliverer.
It tells us nothing about public awareness of or interest in the passage at any time in history even if it were interpreted messianically in some sense.
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Yes, there are messianic references found in some of these. But they are in fact very few compared with the total number of scrolls and surviving manuscript fragments. This relative "fewness" does not lead us to think that messianism was a particularly major preoccupation of the sectarians producing or using those scrolls (assuming "sectarians" of some sort were responsible for them).
Moreover, the messianic references that do exist do not, if I recall correctly, give any indication that a messiah was to appear "within a few years/generation" around the early first century (or any specific period). One could write of a doctrinal belief in a messianic future without being hung up about it and getting everyone around enthused to expect it to happen "any day now".
Besides, one has to ask the extent to which the contents of the DSS throw a light on the beliefs and attitudes of the more general illiterate population.
Florilegium or Midrash on the Last Days (4Q174) Speaks of the last days as predicted in the book of Isaiah and the book of Daniel the Prophet.
A Messianic Apocalypse (4Q521) Speaks of the coming messiah.
The Heavenly Prince Melchizedek (IIQ13) Speaks of the Day of Atonement taking place at the tenth Jubilee, when all the Sons of Light and the men of the lot of Melchizedek will be atoned for.
So, it appears there were plenty of sources for the general population to believe that during the 1st century the long anticipated Messiah would arrive to clear out the Romans and cleanse the Temple.
No, you have cited three writings from how many DSS fragments do we have? That's not "plenty of sources". It is three out of a barrel of about 350.
None of those sources speaks of the (early) first century CE. None gives us any hint of excited anticipation that the messiah was about to arrive on the scene and deliver them.
None gives us any reason to think they preoccupied the minds of the general population.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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arnoldo wrote:For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. http://biblehub.com/acts/3-22.htm
How does this address the question? How much of the OP did you read beyond the title?
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arnoldo wrote:For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. http://biblehub.com/acts/3-22.htm
How does this address the question? How much of the OP did you read beyond the title?
Is it plausible that messianic expectations was a reality in the second century? And if so, why were these messianic expectations projected into the first century by the gospel writers?
Secret Alias wrote:Another first or second century reference to the (Davidic) messiah:
R. Eliezer says: If you will succeed in keeping the Sabbath you will escape the three visitations: The day of Gog, the suffering preceding the advent of the Messiah, and the Great Judgment Day.
The association between the Davidic messiah and Eliezer is particularly strong. He died a generation before Justin.
The question is not whether or not the Jewish scriptures spoke of a messianic son of David figure to come. They clearly did. That is not in dispute. (Nor am I disputing that the same scriptures spoke of other end-time scenarios and messiahs as well.)
The question is the extent to which the general population among Judeans were preoccupied with those particular passages and a hope that such a figure would appear imminently -- all coincidentally around the time Jesus appeared.
I don't think we have any evidence to justify that historical reconstruction.
Marion theology is formulated in Asia Minor, I presume, through some sort of dialogue with/reaction agains other theological views that were associated with our ideas of Judaism and Christianity. Despite your chain of reasoning I don't see how Marcionism testifies to a popular messianism around the turn of the first century.
vridar.orgMusings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
arnoldo wrote:For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. http://biblehub.com/acts/3-22.htm
How does this address the question? How much of the OP did you read beyond the title?
Is it plausible that messianic expectations was a reality in the second century? And if so, why were these messianic expectations projected into the first century by the gospel writers?
(Yes, it is "plausible that messianic expectations were a reality in the second century" among some groups. Did you have any in mind? Bar Kochba? Others?
Why do you assume that those particular plausible expectations were projected into the first century by the gospel writers? Or if I have misunderstood you, why do you seem to assume I am arguing for that particular scenario? I'm not sure why you appear to be wanting to deflect from the arguments in the OP.)
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
vridar.orgMusings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
John T wrote:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you [Moses] from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:18-20
What does that passage tell us about messianic movements?
It does not speak of a messiah. Certainly not a political-military deliverer.
It tells us nothing about public awareness of or interest in the passage at any time in history even if it were interpreted messianically in some sense.
Perhaps none wrote as concisely concerning messianic expectations as Vernard Eller in his book War and Peace: From Genesis to Revelation. In it, he writes about someone who will be the opposite of a political-military deliverer. . who will practice reverse fighting, if you will. Quite fittingly, the preview of his book in google books is in reverse. https://books.google.com/books?id=VOtKA ... ng&f=false
John T wrote:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you [Moses] from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:18-20
What does that passage tell us about messianic movements?
It does not speak of a messiah. Certainly not a political-military deliverer.
It tells us nothing about public awareness of or interest in the passage at any time in history even if it were interpreted messianically in some sense.
Perhaps none wrote as concisely concerning messianic expectations as Vernard Eller in his book War and Peace: From Genesis to Revelation. In it, he writes about someone who will be the opposite of a political-military deliverer. . who will practice reverse fighting, if you will. Quite fittingly, the preview of his book in google books is in reverse. https://books.google.com/books?id=VOtKA ... ng&f=false
You are aware, are you not, of the mainstream scholarship arguing against the notion that there ever was an early first C popular messianism in Palestine?
Can you give some outline of the argument and evidence addressed by Eller? I don't think you are going to simply ask us to buy and read a book without some discussion of its points?
Added later:
Just checked a blurb. Are you a Christian apologist? If so, you might like to read the exchange I had on this question with another apologist in the Jewish Texts and History forum.
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