Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

rakovsky wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: This myth sounds a bit German to me.

Reinhold Bobertag 1853
da die Hoffnung auf den Messias unter den Juden weit verbreitet
(the hope of the messiah was widespread under the Jews)
Messiah ben David is something nonChristian Jews and Christians typically have agreed exists in the Bible based on our oldest records on that question.. Interesting considering how often those two religions disagree.
The Targums were Aramaic translations of the Hebrew OT,
My impression is that all you guys do not answer Neil's question.

Reinhold Bobertag is evidence that the idea was born long before the discovery of the DSS. I have faith that the originators of the idea did not study the targums.

My tip is that it is a German idealistic historical theory.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by andrewcriddle »

The alternative to a belief in (reasonably) widespread messianic expectation in the early first century seems to be that the Jewish war and fall of Jerusalem generated messianic expectations that were previously lacking; and that these expectations were back projected by later writers into the early first century.

Do we have any positive evidence that the aftermath of the Jewish war encouraged messianic expectations ?

Andrew Criddle
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arnoldo
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by arnoldo »

andrewcriddle wrote:The alternative to a belief in (reasonably) widespread messianic expectation in the early first century seems to be that the Jewish war and fall of Jerusalem generated messianic expectations that were previously lacking; and that these expectations were back projected by later writers into the early first century.

Do we have any positive evidence that the aftermath of the Jewish war encouraged messianic expectations?

Andrew Criddle
Simon bar Kokhba?
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John T
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by John T »

MrMacSon wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
John T wrote: Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea from A.D. 26-36, was ever on guard and had license to squash any Jew that had grandiose visions of being the greatly anticipated conquering messiah over the kittims, i.e. Roman Empire.
No doubt the Roman governor's job was to be alert to potential rebellion, but what evidence is there that Pilate or Rome was conscious of "messianic" upstarts as such? None that I know of. Sure there were the usual bandits and prophetic figures, but do you have any evidence that there was any preoccupation with a threat of "messianic" pretenders?
  • Moreover, is there any evidence that Pilate or Rome were looking for "messianic" upstarts as such?

    eta: I guess my question's the same as 'do you have any evidence that there was any preoccupation with a threat of "messianic" pretenders?'
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you [Moses] from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:18-20
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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arnoldo
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by arnoldo »

For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
http://biblehub.com/acts/3-22.htm
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John T
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by John T »

neilgodfrey wrote:
The Dead Sea Scrolls

Yes, there are messianic references found in some of these. But they are in fact very few compared with the total number of scrolls and surviving manuscript fragments. This relative "fewness" does not lead us to think that messianism was a particularly major preoccupation of the sectarians producing or using those scrolls (assuming "sectarians" of some sort were responsible for them).

Moreover, the messianic references that do exist do not, if I recall correctly, give any indication that a messiah was to appear "within a few years/generation" around the early first century (or any specific period). One could write of a doctrinal belief in a messianic future without being hung up about it and getting everyone around enthused to expect it to happen "any day now".

Besides, one has to ask the extent to which the contents of the DSS throw a light on the beliefs and attitudes of the more general illiterate population.
Florilegium or Midrash on the Last Days (4Q174) Speaks of the last days as predicted in the book of Isaiah and the book of Daniel the Prophet.

A Messianic Apocalypse (4Q521) Speaks of the coming messiah.

The Heavenly Prince Melchizedek (IIQ13) Speaks of the Day of Atonement taking place at the tenth Jubilee, when all the Sons of Light and the men of the lot of Melchizedek will be atoned for.

So, it appears there were plenty of sources for the general population to believe that during the 1st century the long anticipated Messiah would arrive to clear out the Romans and cleanse the Temple.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:My tip is that it is a German idealistic historical theory.
No, it goes back to the so called "Fragmentenstreit".
But Reimarus' main contribution to theological science was his analysis of the historical Jesus, Apologie oder Schutzschrift für die vernünftigen Verehrer Gottes ("An apology for, or some words in defense of, reasoning worshipers of God" — only read by a few intimate friends during his lifetime), which he left unpublished. After Reimarus' death, Gotthold Ephraim Lessing published parts of this work as "Fragments by an Anonymous Writer" in his Zur Geschichte und Literatur in 1774-1778, giving rise to what is known as the Fragmentenstreit.[3] This had a deep impact as the beginning of critical research of the historical Jesus (see below).
D. Miller - 1779
„Vor Christi Zeiten haben die Juden den Messias erwartet …“
(Before the times of Christ the Jews awaited the Messiah)
Franz Güssmann1782
Nun aber waren sie des Messias in jenen Zeiten gewärtig, da unser gesegneter Heiland durch seine Ankunft die Erde beglücket … dies bezeugten die Juden selbst, die ihn so zuversichtlich erwartet, daß eben damals,
(They awaited the Messiah in those times, when our savior came to the earth ... this is attested by the Jews who awaited the Messiah so confidently)
Katechismus von Neapel, 1788
F. Machten sich die Juden zur Zeit Jesu Christi Zoffnung auf die Ankunft des Messias? A. Ja; die Juden standen damals in der Meinung, daß der Meffas nicht lange mehr verweilen könnte
(Question: Were the Jews awaiting the coming of the Messiah in the time of Christ? Answer: Yes, the Jews thought, that the Messiah will come soon)
The myth of popular messianic expectations at the time of Jesus is a German theory against the work of Hermann Samuel Reimarus.
Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias »

Neil,

You acknowledge MAYBE, maybe I might be right. Fine. I will start with that. Now on to some of your specific points.
Why would Marcionism attest to popular messianic expectations rather than simply widespread doctrine in the "judaisms" of the day -- that is the day of Marcionism -- post Second Temple era.
Let's start with asking the question when did the Marcionites say 'Marcionism' (that is Paulism or Christianity or whatever they called themselves) originate. The answer first century CE. I don't know whether it was before or after the destruction of the temple. But let's say 'first century CE.' I am not sure that at the time of the temple there were 'Judaisms' in Jerusalem. There was the idea that Jews were at war with the Roman state and the captives in the city were either with or against the revolutionaries.

I think this is proper context for Marcionism. Whether or not we accept the Marcionite claim that they were a first century phenomenon they thought of themselves as a first century phenomenon (like the orthodox) and specifically were a reaction against 'the Jews' and their belief that the Law and the prophets pointed to the advent of a Davidic messiah. I don't remember offhand what the evidence is on behalf of the idea that the Jewish messiah from the Scriptures hadn't arrived yet. Murky stuff. But clearly:

1. 'the Jews' believed that the son of David, the messiah would arrive and this was revealed from the Law and the prophets.
2. the Marcionites apparently accepted the Jewish claim that the Law and the prophets announced such a figure. Apparently 'the gospel' (the Marcionite) gospel knew this (i.e. that the Law and the prophets pointed to the coming of a son of David, messiah and that the Jews 'knew' this and that original evangelist Paul 'knew' that the Law and the prophets knew this and the Jews knew this).
3. Jesus represented something other than the revelation or secret knowledge of the coming of a son of David messiah

We don't need to consider (3) for the moment. But clearly Marcionism begins with a monolithic concept of 'Judaism' rather than Judaisms which I would argue could only have emerged during the War or in a later period like that associated with Bar Kochba.

Could Marcionism have been developed as a reaction to the messianic expectations aroused by the second century figure Bar Kochba? The consensus of scholarship is that Bar Kochba did not claim to have Davidic lineage. So it would seem that the Marcionite model for Judaisms belief that the messiah the son of David was rightly announced by the Law and the prophets does not seem to fit.

In other words, Marcionism either reflect a monolithic Judaism that emerged after the bar Kochba revolt or before the revolt but not during the revolt.

Since however the (Marcionite) gospel is focused on the prediction from Jesus that the temple would be destroyed it seems unlikely that the Marcionite understanding that the Jews believed the Law and the prophets predicted the coming of a Davidic messiah and Jesus wasn't that guy was associated with any other period other than that associated with the first Jewish revolt. So with respect to Andrew's follow up question - it is possible to consider that the Jewish belief in the Law and the prophets predicted the coming of a messianic son of David might have suddenly arisen in the period immediately following the first revolt, the (Marcionite) gospel presents that belief as being pre-existent and reflective of the period before the revolt. In other words, 'Jews' believed that the Law and prophets predicted the coming of the messianic son of David.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias »

The next level of complexity here is the emergence of Catholic or orthodox belief which is quite complex. The orthodox held that the scriptures did point to the coming of a son of David messiah but that figure was wrongly understood by the Jewish authorities of the first century. According to this understanding the Law and the prophets pointed to the coming of Jesus a peaceful Davidic messiah who had to die and be resurrected and the rest of the story. It has been assumed for centuries that this version of the Jesus myth or story was 'original' and the Marcionite version a variation that emerged owing to the 'hatred' of a small minority of Christians. In other words the reason why Marcion argued that the Jesus was not the awaited Davidic messiah familiar from later Jewish speculation was because he hated Jews. This is particularly hard for me to swallow.

The fact that later Jewish belief is identical with the Marcionite caricature of the Jewish belief of the first century period (via the gospel) speaks to the accuracy and originality of Marcionite christology. Whether the Marcionite or orthodox portrait of Jesus, the Jesus of the gospel is not at all like that son of David Christ of the Jews. To me at least the simplest solution is that the orthodox corrupted the simplicity of the more original Christian beliefs of the Marcionites. In other words, the idea that the Jews 'misunderstood' what the Law and the prophets say about the son of David AND the Marcionites misrepresented the first century belief of Jews regarding the son of David is a bridge too far. It is impossible for me to side with one tradition against two about one of the two traditions.

In short Marcionism provides us with a vital second witness to the widespread belief in the son of David messiah among Jews or at least the report of such a belief in the gospel written likely in the immediate aftermath of the first Jewish war.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias »

Another first or second century reference to the (Davidic) messiah:

R. Eliezer says: If you will succeed in keeping the Sabbath you will escape the three visitations: The day of Gog, the suffering preceding the advent of the Messiah, and the Great Judgment Day.

The association between the Davidic messiah and Eliezer is particularly strong. He died a generation before Justin.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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