Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

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Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:19 pm

This model helps explain why messianic expectations are not found at Qumran or literature (like Enoch) which was written before the change of astrological age. The interest in a divinely inspired 'world ruler' tied to the change in astrological ages was unique to the beginning of the Common Era. The components were there before (i.e. the Pentateuch predicting the coming of one like Moses, various expectations in Isaiah and other prophetic texts). But it also helps explain why the specific terminology 'messiah' doesn't appear in the Pentateuch and the earliest literature.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:46 pm

.
What's the conclusion, Stephan? (Neil is right, but nevertheless wrong - or what ? :) )

andrewcriddle wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am
If both the Qumran community and the Pharisees had significant messianic expectations then this does imply that such ideas were reasonably widespread.
neilgodfrey wrote:The Dead Sea Scrolls

Yes, there are messianic references found in some of these. But they are in fact very few compared with the total number of scrolls and surviving manuscript fragments. This relative "fewness" does not lead us to think that messianism was a particularly major preoccupation of the sectarians producing or using those scrolls (assuming "sectarians" of some sort were responsible for them).
My impression is rather "very few compared with the total number of scrolls" than "significant messianic expectations".

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Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:22 pm

My point was that the period around 1 CE was unique because of the change of astrological age. So the term "widespread" in the OP needs to be qualified. There may have been a specific messianic interest associated with the new ruler that would come with the new age which transformed an earlier expectation (which explains why Samaritanism doesn't have it). Moses does not = the world ruler.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:23 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am
If both the Qumran community and the Pharisees had significant messianic expectations then this does imply that such ideas were reasonably widespread.

One possible problem with this thread is that it maybe blurred two rather different ideas of widespread messianic expectation.

a/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a coming Messiah ? (probably yes)
b/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a soon coming Messiah ? (probably no)

Andrew Criddle
Pompykala's main point is that the Psalms of Solomon do not testify to a "messianic expectation" whatever group used to read them. Zillions of people have recited the Lord's Prayer with its "Thy Kingdom Come" line without the slightest expectation that God is going to suddenly burst in on them out of the sky.
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iskander
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by iskander » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am
If both the Qumran community and the Pharisees had significant messianic expectations then this does imply that such ideas were reasonably widespread.

One possible problem with this thread is that it maybe blurred two rather different ideas of widespread messianic expectation.

a/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a coming Messiah ? (probably yes)
b/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a soon coming Messiah ? (probably no)

Andrew Criddle
The term Mashiach [ Messiah] throughout the Hebrew Bible means a historical actually reigning human king of Israel, neither more nor less.
...
The anointed, earthly king of Israel is adopted by God as his son; the son of God is thus the reigning living king of Israel. " This day I have begotten you ", means this day you have been enthroned .
Daniel Boyarin , The Jewish Gospels, page 28
ISBN 9781 595588784


Messiah ( anointed) meant the human King of Israel and it would have meant for the Jewish population the restoration of their independent kingdom .

Messiah is the king of an independent Israel . The restoration of the lost independence is an ever present wish in the life of every nation. Was the desire for independence widespread ? Yes , of course. naturally : The King's Return, is the dream of most Israelites.
Last edited by iskander on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:21 am

... throughout the Hebrew Bible
Where the term appears in the Pentateuch (the most authoritative text in the 'Bible') it means 'anointed priest' (Leviticus 4). What it came to mean among Jewish sectarians is noteworthy but not definitive.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

iskander
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by iskander » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:32 am

David was the first anointed king, the messiah of Israel. See attachment
boyarin 2.PNG
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Secret Alias
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:48 am

But this is a later sectarian meaning. It wasn't shared by the earlier traditions of Samaritanism and others. Unfortunately sometimes sectarians become the new authorities. The problem is that it obscures traditional understandings of terminology and practice.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

iskander
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by iskander » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:02 am

Leviticus 4:3
see attachment
alias 1.PNG
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Myth of widespread messianic expectations early first C

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:02 pm

iskander wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 am
andrewcriddle wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am
If both the Qumran community and the Pharisees had significant messianic expectations then this does imply that such ideas were reasonably widespread.

One possible problem with this thread is that it maybe blurred two rather different ideas of widespread messianic expectation.

a/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a coming Messiah ? (probably yes)
b/ Did most 1st century Jews believe in a soon coming Messiah ? (probably no)

Andrew Criddle
The term Mashiach [ Messiah] throughout the Hebrew Bible means a historical actually reigning human king of Israel, neither more nor less.
...
The anointed, earthly king of Israel is adopted by God as his son; the son of God is thus the reigning living king of Israel. " This day I have begotten you ", means this day you have been enthroned .
Daniel Boyarin , The Jewish Gospels, page 28
ISBN 9781 595588784


Messiah ( anointed) meant the human King of Israel and it would have meant for the Jewish population the restoration of their independent kingdom .

Messiah is the king of an independent Israel . The restoration of the lost independence is an ever present wish in the life of every nation. Was the desire for independence widespread ? Yes , of course. naturally : The King's Return, is the dream of most Israelites.
I'm glad you found a page in a book that supports your opinion so I won't trouble you with a bibliography of works tearing the foundation of Boyarin's view to shreds -- and that have been discussed on this forum before. (If you read the page before page 28 and follow up the footnote there you will see that Boyarin is basing his claims almost entirely on Fitzmyer's book.)
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