Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusion

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Bernard Muller
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Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusion

Post by Bernard Muller »

From an excellent blog post by Richard Carrier (which I advise anyone on this forum to read entirely):
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... #more-4973
That's too bad he chose the mythicist case with that crucifixion in heaven. He is very good in almost every other fields but I am afraid his name and the atheist cause will suffer considerably after he publishes his next book, with all kinds of remote, lame & silly arguments in favor to a non-existent human earthly Jesus.
But I think in the passage I quote below, he is dead on the "nobody Jesus" extracted from the gospels (more so Mark), and he would have done an excellent job proving that. Too bad!
Craig’s fourth item of “evidence” is the claim that “historians have reached something of consensus” (no, they really haven’t: see chapter 1 of Proving History) “that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) “and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.”
Evidence of what fact? The fact, evidently, that God could not cure malaria, typhoid, tuberculosis, or cholera, the leading killers of millions in Palestine when Jesus was supposedly there, and that Jesus performed instead just a few exorcisms and faith-healing acts on a small number of people with no verifiable biological symptoms (things like blindness and paralysis and demonic possession, which can easily be psychosomatic: see From Paralysis to Fatigue), while he assiduously avoided ever even so much as encountering, and certainly doing anything about, the millions perishing all around him from real diseases with prominent physical symptoms. That’s hardly a godlike kingdom breaking into the world. That’s just another Benny Hinn.
Jesus, we’re told, was also ignorant of basic facts of the world (despite it supposedly being his own or his father’s creation), like that washing your hands before eating or preparing food is a good practice and to be recommended, as it would save millions of lives. Instead, Jesus condemned the practice as a baseless human tradition, and evidently advised his followers to stop doing it (Mark 7:1-8). Apparently, no one told Jesus about germs. Jesus likewise predicted he would return from heaven within the lifetime of those present, yet didn’t. It’s been nearly two thousand years, still waiting. That’s a failed promise or prediction. (See “At Best Jesus Was a Failed Apocalyptic Prophet” by John Loftus in The Christian Delusion.) That does not look very probable if Jesus was, or was endorsed by, God. It rather looks exactly like what we’d expect if he wasn’t.
Indeed, all this is pretty well conclusive proof that Jesus was not a god and had no divine backing. Because he couldn’t do anything more than Benny Hinn, a con man. There are many other examples of how the historical evidence proves Jesus (if we assume he existed) was just an ordinary guy who had no special powers or knowledge and neither he nor his followers were capable of any special abilities. I survey a lot of this evidence (which is abundant) in chapter two of The End of Christianity (“Christianity’s Success Was Not Incredible”).
Craig won’t tell Fox News readers about any of that, or any of the facts (and corrections to his own claims) that I just related above.
Of course Craig then goes on to insist the evidence proves Jesus was raised from the dead. But again, only by lying.
For example, he claims “most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty” (this is actually not true: there is no evidence “most historical scholars” agree with that) ...
Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Eric
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Eric »

Bernard Muller wrote:From an excellent blog post by Richard Carrier (which I advise anyone on this forum to read entirely):
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... #more-4973
That's too bad he chose the mythicist case with that crucifixion in heaven. He is very good in almost every other fields but I am afraid his name and the atheist cause will suffer considerably after he publishes his next book, with all kinds of remote, lame & silly arguments in favor to a non-existent human earthly Jesus.
But I think in the passage I quote below, he is dead on the "nobody Jesus" extracted from the gospels (more so Mark), and he would have done an excellent job proving that. Too bad!
Craig’s fourth item of “evidence” is the claim that “historians have reached something of consensus” (no, they really haven’t: see chapter 1 of Proving History) “that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) “and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.”
Evidence of what fact? The fact, evidently, that God could not cure malaria, typhoid, tuberculosis, or cholera, the leading killers of millions in Palestine when Jesus was supposedly there, and that Jesus performed instead just a few exorcisms and faith-healing acts on a small number of people with no verifiable biological symptoms (things like blindness and paralysis and demonic possession, which can easily be psychosomatic: see From Paralysis to Fatigue), while he assiduously avoided ever even so much as encountering, and certainly doing anything about, the millions perishing all around him from real diseases with prominent physical symptoms.
Are you saying His purpose should just fulfill this life here?

That’s hardly a godlike kingdom breaking into the world. That’s just another Benny Hinn.
Jesus, we’re told, was also ignorant of basic facts of the world (despite it supposedly being his own or his father’s creation), like that washing your hands before eating or preparing food is a good practice and to be recommended, as it would save millions of lives. Instead, Jesus condemned the practice as a baseless human tradition, and evidently advised his followers to stop doing it (Mark 7:1-8). Apparently, no one told Jesus about germs. Jesus likewise predicted he would return from heaven within the lifetime of those present, yet didn’t. It’s been nearly two thousand years, still waiting. That’s a failed promise or prediction. (See “At Best Jesus Was a Failed Apocalyptic Prophet” by John Loftus in The Christian Delusion.) That does not look very probable if Jesus was, or was endorsed by, God. It rather looks exactly like what we’d expect if he wasn’t.
ALL books and quotes are fallible, is this shocking news?

Indeed, all this is pretty well conclusive proof that Jesus was not a god and had no divine backing. Because he couldn’t do anything more than Benny Hinn, a con man. There are many other examples of how the historical evidence proves Jesus (if we assume he existed) was just an ordinary guy who had no special powers or knowledge and neither he nor his followers were capable of any special abilities. I survey a lot of this evidence (which is abundant) in chapter two of The End of Christianity (“Christianity’s Success Was Not Incredible”).
Craig won’t tell Fox News readers about any of that, or any of the facts (and corrections to his own claims) that I just related above.
Of course Craig then goes on to insist the evidence proves Jesus was raised from the dead. But again, only by lying.
For example, he claims “most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty” (this is actually not true: there is no evidence “most historical scholars” agree with that) ...
Cordially, Bernard
To become fully human is divine.
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Blood
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Blood »

:goodmorning:
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
Bernard Muller
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Eric,
The passage you commented upon was written by Carrier, not me. If you object to some points, put your stuff on Carrier's blog.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Eric
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Eric »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Eric,
The passage you commented upon was written by Carrier, not me. If you object to some points, put your stuff on Carrier's blog.

Cordially, Bernard
Ooops. My bad. :silenced:
To become fully human is divine.
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Blood
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Blood »

That was a great take-down.

Craig has a script and he's sticking to it. It will never vary, regardless of argument or evidence. He is the worst kind of Sophist.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
outhouse
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by outhouse »

Bernard Muller wrote:
That's too bad he chose the mythicist case with that crucifixion in heaven


Cordially, Bernard
True.

It is one of his many week points.


Why have a crucifixion in heaven and then place it at a Passover where 400,000 people have the chance to witness it and say,,,,,,

"I was there it never happened, he is no god"

The text claim it was at passover, yet no early fathers were writing of any controversy about this at all.
beowulf
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by beowulf »

Bernard Muller wrote:From an excellent blog post by Richard Carrier (which I advise anyone on this forum to read entirely):
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... #more-4973
That's too bad he chose the mythicist case with that crucifixion in heaven. He is very good in almost every other fields but I am afraid his name and the atheist cause will suffer considerably after he publishes his next book, with all kinds of remote, lame & silly arguments in favor to a non-existent human earthly Jesus.
But I think in the passage I quote below, he is dead on the "nobody Jesus" extracted from the gospels (more so Mark), and he would have done an excellent job proving that. Too bad!
Craig’s fourth item of “evidence” is the claim that “historians have reached something of consensus” (no, they really haven’t: see chapter 1 of Proving History) “that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) “and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.”
Evidence of what fact? The fact, evidently, that God could not cure malaria, typhoid, tuberculosis, or cholera, the leading killers of millions in Palestine when Jesus was supposedly there, and that Jesus performed instead just a few exorcisms and faith-healing acts on a small number of people with no verifiable biological symptoms (things like blindness and paralysis and demonic possession, which can easily be psychosomatic: see From Paralysis to Fatigue), while he assiduously avoided ever even so much as encountering, and certainly doing anything about, the millions perishing all around him from real diseases with prominent physical symptoms. That’s hardly a godlike kingdom breaking into the world. That’s just another Benny Hinn.
Jesus, we’re told, was also ignorant of basic facts of the world (despite it supposedly being his own or his father’s creation), like that washing your hands before eating or preparing food is a good practice and to be recommended, as it would save millions of lives. Instead, Jesus condemned the practice as a baseless human tradition, and evidently advised his followers to stop doing it (Mark 7:1-8). Apparently, no one told Jesus about germs. Jesus likewise predicted he would return from heaven within the lifetime of those present, yet didn’t. It’s been nearly two thousand years, still waiting. That’s a failed promise or prediction. (See “At Best Jesus Was a Failed Apocalyptic Prophet” by John Loftus in The Christian Delusion.) That does not look very probable if Jesus was, or was endorsed by, God. It rather looks exactly like what we’d expect if he wasn’t.
Indeed, all this is pretty well conclusive proof that Jesus was not a god and had no divine backing. Because he couldn’t do anything more than Benny Hinn, a con man. There are many other examples of how the historical evidence proves Jesus (if we assume he existed) was just an ordinary guy who had no special powers or knowledge and neither he nor his followers were capable of any special abilities. I survey a lot of this evidence (which is abundant) in chapter two of The End of Christianity (“Christianity’s Success Was Not Incredible”).
Craig won’t tell Fox News readers about any of that, or any of the facts (and corrections to his own claims) that I just related above.
Of course Craig then goes on to insist the evidence proves Jesus was raised from the dead. But again, only by lying.
For example, he claims “most historical scholars agree that after his crucifixion Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty” (this is actually not true: there is no evidence “most historical scholars” agree with that) ...
Cordially, Bernard
It is rubbish.
Roger Pearse
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by Roger Pearse »

I was mildly surprised to read the following:
RichardCarrier wrote: Craig’s fourth item of “evidence” is the claim that “historians have reached something of consensus that the historical Jesus thought that in himself God’s Kingdom had broken into human history and he carried out a ministry of miracle-working and exorcisms as evidence of that fact.”
And the crushing, totally convincing reply?
RichardCarrier wrote: (Snip "Jesus didn't heal every single person alive of everything everywhere")

Jesus, we’re told, was also ignorant of basic facts of the world (despite it supposedly being his own or his father’s creation), like that washing your hands before eating or preparing food is a good practice and to be recommended (etc)
Christianity isn't true (?) because ... Jesus did not say, "Now wash your hands"?

Wow.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Richard Carrier: Merry Christmas, God Is Still a Delusio

Post by stephan happy huller »

I don't know why it is so difficult for people on both sides to say "maybe."
Everyone loves the happy times
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