...Crucified before Jerusalem was founded...

[Giuseppe]

There is a Mythicist in this forum, robert j, who derived attention to this passage:

Peter in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says, “But, having opened the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ, found his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption into the heavens before Jerusalem was founded, all these things that had been written, what he must suffer and what shall be after him. When, therefore, we gained knowledge of these things, we believed in God through that which had been written of him." And a little after he adds that the prophecies came by divine providence, in these terms, “For we know that God commanded them, and without the Scripture we say nothing." (Stromata, 6.15.128).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2771&p=61725&hilit=stromata#p61725

I remember about this passage because I have found another curious passage in Hyppolitus, Book V, chapt. vii, 35-36:

The expression "rock," he says, he uses of Adam. This, he affirms, is Adam: "The chief corner-stone become the head of the corner. For that in the head the substance is the formative brain from which the entire family is fashioned. "Whom," he says, "I place as a rock at the foundations of Zion." Allegorizing, he says, he speaks of the creation of the man. The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man, who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above. And he has been "severed without hands to effect the division," and has been borne down into the image of oblivion, being earthly and clayish.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/hyp_refut5.htm

"Whom," he says, "I place as a rock at the foundations of Zion."

is a quote from Isaiah 28.16 :

therefore thus says the Lord God,
See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation:
“One who trusts will not panic.”

The divine Adam or Anthropos (Paul would call him Jesus Christ, obviously) is the ''cornerstone'' that founded Jerusalem.
This would be allegory, according to these heretics, ''of the creation of the man'':

Allegorizing, he says, he speaks of the creation of the man. The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man,

But - and this point is very important - that creation was not without suffering:

who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above. And he has been "severed without hands to effect the division," and has been borne down into the image of oblivion, being earthly and clayish

These words:

"severed without hands to effect the division,"

are quoted from Daniel 2.45 :

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from the mountain not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The great God has informed the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation trustworthy.”

If the ''stone'' of Daniel 2.45 is the same divin Adam or Anthropos, then what does it mean that this ''stone was cut ... not by hands'' ?

ANSWER: the divine Anthropos was killed by not-human beings, i.e. by DEMONS.

This is clearly evidence that, according to these heretics, ''Jesus'' (or how you want to call this divine Anthropos or Adam), was killed by demons ''before the foundation of Jerusalem'' (Zion).

And that death by demons takes the form of a falling from ''above''.

who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above.

If someone falls, then it means that he is killed before his falling. Therefore Jesus was killed in heaven by demons and his falling caused the creation of the men. All this is allegorized with the foundation of Jerusalem by the special ''cornerstone cut not by hands''.

The smoking gun that proves definitively all this is the words of Hyppolitus (by me put in red here):

The expression "rock," he says, he uses of Adam. This, he affirms, is Adam: "The chief corner-stone become the head of the corner. For that in the head the substance is the formative brain from which the entire family is fashioned. "Whom," he says, "I place as a rock at the foundations of Zion." Allegorizing, he says, he speaks of the creation of the man. The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man, who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above. And he has been "severed without hands to effect the division," and has been borne down into the image of oblivion, being earthly and clayish.

What is the ''head'', the ''head'' where is ''the formative brain'' ?

Where is the ''brain'', by definition ? Where are the ''teeth'' where the divine Anthropos is fallen ?

INSIDE THE SKULL.

SKULL = ''GOLGOTHA''.

Et voilà:

[rakovsky]

There is a Mythicist in this forum, robert j, who derived attention to this passage:

Peter in the Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says, “But, having opened the books of the prophets which we had, found, sometimes expressed by parables, sometimes by riddles, and sometimes directly and in so many words naming Jesus Christ, found his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption into the heavens before Jerusalem was founded, all these things that had been written, what he must suffer and what shall be after him. When, therefore, we gained knowledge of these things, we believed in God through that which had been written of him." And a little after he adds that the prophecies came by divine providence, in these terms, “For we know that God commanded them, and without the Scripture we say nothing." (Stromata, 6.15.128).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2771&p=61725&hilit=stromata#p61725

There are two different preaching of Peter texts. The later one, kerygma petrou, is considered gnostic iirc.

You would want to double check if there is a translation and comma issue wrt the original.

AFAIK, Clement Alexandrine would have said that the prophets predicted the cross (assigned to jesus by pilate) even before Jerusalem was founded, not that they predicted the cross to occur before Jerusalem was founded. Maybe a translation issue there.

Commas make a big difference

" before Jerusalem was founded, all these things that had been written, "

Vs

", before Jerusalem was founded all these things that had been written, "

Notice the word "that".
It suggests a translation issue because it sounds odd grammatically at least in english.

[Giuseppe]

I quote the words of Andrew Criddle about the passage:

This is not an apologetic translation but a conhectural emendation See Note 3437 in http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.vi.xv.html where what is going on is made clear.

The text in the only surviving independent manuscript (there is IIUC a later copy) reads κτισθῆναι was founded the emendation is κριθῆναι was judged/condemned etc Other emendations have been suggested.

I'm not sure what the original read but it is hard to make sense of the prophets foretelling the death of Jesus at the hands of the Jews before Jerusalem was founded.

Andrew Criddle

(my bold)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=736&start=10#p15256

Note that not even Andrew Criddle is not sure what the original read, but I agree with him that ''it is hard to make sense of the prophets foretelling the death of Jesus at the hands of the Jews before Jerusalem was founded''.

Only that now I can make sense of that expression ''crucified before Jerusalem was founded'', because it is allegory derived from Scripture (therefore not mere gnostic speculation) that Jesus (the divine Adam) is killed by demons before the creation of world.

[rakovsky]

Which preaching of Peter is he referring to, the text dated 100 ad or the kerygma petrou from many decades later?

Second, in Clements writing, it says " what he must suffer and what shall be after him. When, therefore, we gained knowledge of these things, we believed in God through that which had been written of him." And a little after he adds that the prophecies came by divine providence, in these terms, "

So it looks like these were predictions made by the prophets, not narrations made of past events. The "cross" or crucifixion was not in circa 6000 bc before the prophets, but in 30 ad after them as they thus predicted and " prophesied."

[Giuseppe]

So it looks like these were predictions made by the prophets, not narrations made of past events. The "cross" or crucifixion was not in circa 6000 bc before the prophets, but in 30 ad after them as they thus predicted and " prophesied

It is a POSSIBLE reading, sure.

But I have proved, via Hyppolitus, that another reading is POSSIBLE (a reading that *was made*, even if not by Origen): a reading of the "stone" put at foundation of Zion
as an allegory of the death of the divine Adam before the creation of the world (and causing it).

[rakovsky]

So it looks like these were predictions made by the prophets, not narrations made of past events. The "cross" or crucifixion was not in circa 6000 bc before the prophets, but in 30 ad after them as they thus predicted and " prophesied

It is a POSSIBLE reading, sure.

But I have proved, via Hyppolitus, that another reading is POSSIBLE (a reading that *was made*, even if not by Origen): a reading of the "stone" put at foundation of Zion
as an allegory of the death of the divine Adam before the creation of the world (and causing it).

Actually, Hinduism has that kind of idea, the death of Purusha Prajapati, the Cosmic First Man, or "Person First-Creator". He was sacrificed by the other gods in Hinduism. From Purusha's yajna sacrifice, the world was created.

However, to the best of my ability, that is not what the texts you are referencing say, ie. that Jesus died two deaths and had two resurrections, or that he otherwise died in c. 6000 BC in Jerusalem before the prophets foretold that it would happen in the future.

So eg. here:

The expression "rock," he says, he uses of Adam. This, he affirms, is Adam: "The chief corner-stone become the head of the corner. For that in the head the substance is the formative brain from which the entire family is fashioned. "Whom," he says, "I place as a rock at the foundations of Zion." Allegorizing, he says, he speaks of the creation of the man.

None of that references Christ. Hyppolytus could be thinking of one interpretation, and then in the gospels the reference to the chief cornerstone can be a different interpretation. We have to take each writer's interpretation on their own terms..
In the part above, it talks about Adam, a different person than Christ. It says the cornerstone is Adam, not Christ. I place a rock at the base of Zion it says is about the "creation of the man". Nowhere does that mention Christ.

Next, he says:

The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man, who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above. And he has been "severed without hands to effect the division," and has been borne down into the image of oblivion, being earthly and clayish.

Still, there is no direct reference clearly to Christ, nor for that matter to Christ actually getting killed. The Adam who is the primal man above, not Christ, had a claylike "inner man" separated from that primal Adam.

Protestantism loses out on alot of the allegories and ideas you can find in Orthodox Christianity. In the latter, Adam is the "first man", by his sin, humans are put in a different, lower state (the allegorical "inner man" likely referenced here), and Christ is the "new Adam".

[Giuseppe]

None of that references Christ. Hyppolytus could be thinking of one interpretation, and then in the gospels the reference to the chief cornerstone can be a different interpretation. We have to take each writer's interpretation on their own terms..

No need of Gospel-references, here. If I remember well, the Psalm 117.22 (about the corner-stone) is used already by Paul in reference to Christ somewhere in Romans.

The Adam who is the primal man above, not Christ, had a claylike "inner man" separated from that primal Adam.

In Romans 7:22 the ''inner man'' is not a corrupted part but is the best spiritual part of the soul:

For I delight in the law of God after the inner man

According to the gnostics, the ''inner man'' inside any individual is one with Christ. Therefore also the primal man (whoose the inner man is part) is Christ.

Therefore we have evidence that the inner man is part of the primal man, i.e. Jesus Christ who is killed by demons before the creation . The sequence of events is the following:

the Primal Man is killed by demons before the creation.

The Primal Man falls down, causing the creation.

After the his death, the Primal Man becomes a lot of ''inner men'', one for any human being.

[rakovsky]

You are free to believe whatever you wish.
To the best of my understanding, Clement Alexandrine is talking about prophesies made before Jerusalem was founded about the cross, to occur after their time.
And the references to the rock at the foundation of Adam don't seem to reference demons killing Jesus. One rock getting severed from another rock doesn't mean either rock was necessarily killed. I am unaware of any teaching that Jesus endured two deaths.

Closest thing I can think about to what you are describing would be Purusha Prajapati, the Person Progenitor of Creation in Hinduism (and maybe pre-Aryan traditions of India) where various gods, or at least Shiva/Rudra, killed Purusha, with his death causing the cosmos' creation. Purusha's death is described as a sacrifice (yajna), with at least one version even describing him being burned on logs.

[Giuseppe]

@rakowsky

And the references to the rock at the foundation of Adam don't seem to reference demons killing Jesus. One rock getting severed from another rock doesn't mean either rock was necessarily killed.

The text says:

The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man, who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above.

“who thither has fallen from Adam” is the rock allegory of both the “inner man” and the primal Adam.
His fall is clearly an effect on a death. Of a precise death: the death of the primal man himself.


Curiously it is just Clement of Alexandria who claims the identity Primal Man = Jesus:

The identity of Adam and Jesus seems to have been taught in the original form of the Clementine writings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kadmon

Therefore this confirms that the reading of :

found his coming and his death and the cross and all the other torments which the Jews inflicted on him, and his resurrection and assumption into the heavens before Jerusalem was founded, all these things that had been written,

...as meant by his original author, is the same reading made by robert j.


But I derive something in addition: The crucifixion of Jesus before the foundation of Jerusalem is itself an allegory of another myth: the death of the Primal Man Christ in heaven before the creation (and causing it).

[rakovsky]

The rock is interposed (within) the teeth, as Homer says, "enclosure of teeth," that is, a wall anti fortress, in which exists the inner man, who thither has fallen from Adam, the primal man above.

“who thither has fallen from Adam” is the rock allegory of both the “inner man” and the primal Adam.
His fall is clearly an effect on a death. Of a precise death: the death of the primal man himself.

Sorry, I don't see any clear reference to Jesus having died before, say, 2000 BC in that.
OK, the primal Adam falls from Adam. How is that an explicit reference to anybody actually dying?
Lucifer fell from heaven in one story, but that doesn't mean Lucifer got killed.

If you are looking for an instance of a primal man dying at Creation, an easy example would be Purusha Prajapati. I heard that in some other Indoeuropean myths there was a similar story about the great giant who was killed at the beginning of Creation.


Purusha Prajapati

The Purusha Sukta of Rigveda (10.90) explains that the universe was created out of the parts of the body of a single cosmic man ( Purusha) who is sacrificed by the gods.

http://mesosyn.com/myth2h-4.html

Closest analogy though to Jesus in paganism as a pre-Creational being would seem rather to be Ptah, as they both create the world using the Logos method of forming Creation, using words or thoughts directly. There could be some major overlap between Egyptian theology and ancient Judaism.