Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by Giuseppe »

According to Jim West, the answer may be ''no''.

https://ogdoas.wordpress.com/2012/08/07 ... -world-10/

But another possibility is raised: Paul did adore Yhwh, but he didn't see Yhwh behind the second giving of the Law (while behind the first giving of Law he saw Yhwh).
The first tablets of the Law had been smashed when the Israelites lapsed into idolatry while Moses was still on Mt.Sinai, where he received the first set of tablets in the presence of the Lord (Ex. 32). In the second giving of the Law (Ex. 34) Moses returns to the summit of Mt.Sinai. New tablets are cut and Moses returns down the mountain after 40 days in the presence of the Lord. And when the Israelites see him they are frightened by the supernatural glow in Moses’ face which was the result of his time with the Lord. Thus when Moses gave the Lord’s commandments to the Israelites, he wore a veil over his face. The scriptures report that whenever Moses went into the presence of the Lord, he removed the veil. But when he came out to dictate to the Israelites, he wore the veil in their presence (Ex. 34:32-35).
In two possibilities on three, Paul imagined that a demon masked himself as the true God, as the pseudo-Yhwh.

But in one possibility on three, Paul identified Yhwh with a demon.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by Giuseppe »

April DeConick, in his (expected by me) "The gnostic new age", claims that Paul identified the "king" of the archons in a specific mysterious figure, that he calls "the prince of the power of air".

Could be this "prince" the inferior god who gave the Law to Moses, by masking himself as the true god of the Jews?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by Giuseppe »

If Satan is the same "power of the air", then the "archon of the power of air" is not Satan but a more powerful figure: the same who gave the Law to Moses?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
lsayre
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by lsayre »

Giuseppe wrote:If Satan is the same "power of the air", then the "archon of the power of air" is not Satan but a more powerful figure: the same who gave the Law to Moses?
I've been convinced for some time now that the Pauline camp was gnostic, or at the very least, proto-gnostic.

BTW, April DeConick is a woman. Do you have a link to "The gnostic new age"?
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote:
Giuseppe wrote:If Satan is the same "power of the air", then the "archon of the power of air" is not Satan but a more powerful figure: the same who gave the Law to Moses?
I've been convinced for some time now that the Pauline camp was gnostic, or at the very least, proto-gnostic.

BTW, April DeConick is a woman. Do you have a link to "The gnostic new age"?
Most modern commentators have identified this figure with Satan. But this identification is debatable, especially when we take into consideration the passage in Ephesians in which Paul refers to the “archon of the power of the air”. In this passage, Paul identifies the power of the air with the spirit of wickedness that works in the hearts of disobedient people (Ephesians 2.1-2). If this figure is traditionally Satan, then who is Satan's liege, the archon who rules over him? Paul never tells us who or what he has in mind. His remarks in his letters do not help us fill in all the details, but it is clear that the demonic world Paul envisioned included many more figures than Satan, and perahps a separate world ruler who reigned over Satan and the other fallen angels.
(my bold)

https://books.google.it/books?redir_esc ... ir&f=false
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Jamesthelazer
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Did Paul adore yhwh ?

Post by Jamesthelazer »

Wow... how do you get there when Paul in the next sentence says the Church shines with the same Glory?

And he's got his whole section in Romans where he upholds the Law as holy...

Honestly, Marcion is tired... he needs to go to bed! A demurge/ gnostic reading of Paul (or I'd add a "Monarchist Satan" view from 2 Enoch) is always a stretch.

Ephesians 2:11-end is about gentiles being integrated into the OT covenant, and his soliloquies on Abraham's seed, etc. all stack up against such.
Post Reply