Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

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Giuseppe
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Giuseppe »

A my modest point of view in this thread of so erudite scholars :)

I think that only from Eusebius's time there was really need, by Christian part, of a ''Testimonium'' stricto sensu of Jesus. Before that time, the Christians had need of a Jesus unknown by all. Think about the Messianic Secret in Mark, think about the Marcionite Jesus or the Gnostic Jesus: a hidden Jesus, even if meant as historical, was more appealing than a historical, objective Jesus.

But before Eusebius, the Christians were embarrassed not about the silence about Jesus by guys like Josephus, Justus, etc.

They were embarrassed about the silence of John the Baptist about their Jesus (beyond if mythical or historical).

Therefore I think that, IF Mark was the earliest Gospel, then John the Baptist HAD to be introduced because it was supremely necessary that he knew Jesus, even if only during a short occasion. The fear of Herod about Jesus as ''John redivivus'' in Mark 6:14-16 helps to make the point that the news about John (and about a John who punished post-mortem Herod behind the defeat of the his army, cfr. Antiquities 18, 116) are really the news about Jesus. The early Christians were moved to ''read'' behind the popular (historical) voices about the link ''defeat of Herod --> revenge of John the Baptist'' the same presence of a ''historical'' Jesus in the official History.

Something as:

''hey, folks, do you listen the last news: Herod is punished by God because he killed John, a good man.''

''no, you are wrong. The news about John vindicated by God against Herod are really the news about the mirabilia of Jesus of Nazaret''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Bernard Muller »

One might also wonder that if Origen complains that Josephus "disbelieved" that
Jesus was the Christ (Contra Celsus 1.47), if Josephus never mentioned Jesus,
why he would pick on Josephus. For NONE of the Jews believed Jesus was the Christ.
A) Tod probably meant "if Josephus never mentioned Jesus was the Christ"
B) Josephus was an illustrious Jewish historian who covered Pilate's rule over Judea and afterwards (where Christians & Christianity are ignored). So Josephus was of note and the fact he never said Jesus was the Christ was something to lament about (that got "corrected" later, possibly by Eusebius himself).
C) Some Jews did believe Jesus was Christ. They were called Jewish Christians and they started as early as around 40 CE in Antioch, if not earlier. They kept observing the Law, even if their Christological beliefs might have been more restricted than the ones of Gentile Christians.
D) If Josephus had written a neutral TF about Jesus in Antiquities 18, 3, then he would have mentioned he already wrote about "Jesus, who was called Christ" in Antiquities 20, 9, 1, two books later; just like he did (three times) for Judas of Galilee: http://historical-jesus.info/appe.html ("find" on 3.10. )
E) Other argument for no TF of any kind in Antiquities 18, 3:
The author of the interpolation mentioned by Origen and quoted by Eusebius was not aware of any TF in Ant. 18, 3: http://historical-jesus.info/appe.html ("find" on 3.9. )

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Bernard Muller »

IF Mark was the earliest Gospel, then John the Baptist HAD to be introduced because it was supremely necessary that he knew Jesus, even if only during a short occasion.
gMark does not go that far. John the Baptist does not know Jesus and that Jesus is just another guy (among many others) to be baptized by him. "Matthew & "John" (but not "Luke") will fix that.
Another example of evolution in Christian claims.

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Giuseppe »

Bernard Muller wrote:
IF Mark was the earliest Gospel, then John the Baptist HAD to be introduced because it was supremely necessary that he knew Jesus, even if only during a short occasion.
gMark does not go that far. John the Baptist does not know Jesus and that Jesus is just another guy (among many others) to be baptized by him.
Yes but in whiletime "Mark" obtained what he wanted as "real": that the great popular hero John the Baptist SAW physically Jesus of Nazaret AT LEAST during a short occasion. So the embarrassment of a JtB silent about the Gospel Jesus is overcomed and the next step was to coopt the popular news about the John killed by Herod and vindicated by God as the "REAL" news about the "historical" Jesus.

In this way the notoriety of the post-mortem John becomes the notoriety of the "historical" Jesus.

Therefore Mark was really embarrassed by the notoriety of JtB in comparison with the obscurity of the earthly Jesus he was going to invent.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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maryhelena
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by maryhelena »

DCHindley wrote:Ken and others,

The only other place where I am aware of likely tampering with Josephus is in the accounts of the first few procurators of Judea, including Pilate.

The Judean governors are usually introduced and dated by an association with a year of the reigning emperor, with the length of governorship not stated. However, the length of governorship is expressly stated for Valarius Gratus ("eleven years" Ant 18.35) and Pontius Pilate ("ten years" Ant 18.89). In the case of Gratus, the detailed accounts of Gratus' governorship (32-34) cover only the first four years of a rule that supposedly ran seven years longer, even though Gratus seemed to have intentionally appointed a new high priest each year for the first four.

As the text stands in all mss., the sentence "after he [Gratus] had tarried in Judea eleven years" would make this the 12th year of Tiberius (26 CE). He supposedly appointed Joseph Caiaphas as HP before he left town and headed back to Rome, and Pilate came to replace him. See the bolded text below.
Antiquities of the Jews 18:32-35
32 ... Caesar, the second emperor of the Romans, ...
33 upon whose death Tiberius Nero, his wife Julia's son, succeeded. He was now the third emperor; and he sent Valerius Gratus to be procurator of Judea, and to succeed Annius Rufus.
34 This man deprived Ananus of the high priesthood, and appointed Ismael, the son of Phabi, to be high priest. He also deprived him in a little time, and ordained Eleazar, the son of Ananus, who had been high priest before, to be high priest: which office, when he had held for a year, Gratus deprived him of it, and gave the high priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus;
35 and, when he had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done those things he went back to Rome, after he had tarried in Judea eleven years [i.e. in the 12th year of Tiberius, 26 CE], when Pontius Pilate came as his successor.

Antiquities of the Jews 18:89
89 So Vitellius [legate of Syria] sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he dared not contradict; but before he could get to Rome, Tiberius was dead.
Why is this important? Well, we know from Eusebius that sometime in the reign of emperor Maximinus Daia (ruler of Asia Minor & Syria, 305-313 CE, under the Tetrarchy established by Diocletian), he had published something he purported to be Pilate's own Acta (private diary accounts of official actions, kept by all Roman officials with juridical powers).
Church History 9.5.1. [The flatterers of Maximinus Daia] Having therefore forged Acts of Pilate and our Saviour [Πιλάτου καὶ τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ὑπομνήματα] full of every kind of blasphemy against Christ, they sent them with the emperor [Maximinus]'s approval to the whole of the empire subject to him [Asia Minor & Syria], with written commands that they should be openly posted to the view of all in every place, both in country and city, and that the schoolmasters should give them to their scholars, instead of their customary lessons, to be studied and learned by heart.
In them is the claim that the events that happened to Jesus occurred in the fourth consulship of Tiberius (21 CE). Eusebius takes umbrage to this statement, and attempts to dismiss it as follows:
Church History 1.9.1. … [Josephus], in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities [18:32-35, 89], says that about the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, who had succeeded to the empire after Augustus had ruled fifty-seven years, Pontius Pilate was entrusted with the government of Judea, and that he remained there ten full years, almost until the death of Tiberius.
2. Accordingly the forgery of those [Maximinus Daia and his flatterers] who have recently [305-313 CE] given currency to Acts against our Saviour is clearly proved. For the very date given in them shows the falsehood of their fabricators.
3. For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius (21 CE), which occurred in the seventh year of his reign; at which time it is plain that Pilate was not yet ruling in Judea, if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed [εἴ γε τῷ Ἰωσήπῳ μάρτυρι χρήσασθαι δέον], who clearly shows in the above-mentioned work [Josephus' Ant 18:32-35] that Pilate was made procurator of Judea by Tiberius in the twelfth year of his reign (26 CE). [my bolding]
What does Eusebius suggest by the phrase "if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed"? The unusual wording only occurs at the place where Pilate's governorship can be dated, which as they stand now cannot allow the events that happed to Jesus occur in 21 CE. Impossible! But that is almost too convenient, and suggests to me that the text of Josephus was tinkered with to make the actual sequence of events "go away" so the Christian account could not possibly have anything to do with 21 CE. I believe Steve Mason also suggests this as well (I think I read his reservation in the most recent edition of his Josephus and the New Testament).

The passage may have originally read: "35 and, when he [the HP Simon] had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done those things he went back to Rome, [interpolation removed] when Pontius Pilate came as his successor [ca. 19 CE]. This jives better with the dates of some of the events in Rome which Josephus associates with Pilate's time, such as Mundus & Paulina, where we can cross reference them to statements made by Tacitus, etc. The same editor who added the 11 years of rule of Gratus when it was actually four, then went on to make sure that nobody could possibly back date Pilate as early as 21 CE by adding that he ruled 10 years. It is not even necessary to assume that the editor who may have added these interpolations edited out anything bad or otherwise about Jesus. His whole purpose was to make the date for Jesus' actions in Maximinus Daia's Acta Pilati impossible.

Why? To appease Christians. Constantine had become sole ruler of the western empire by 313-314, including Rome, where presumably he had access to the original physical copies of Josephus' books. Constantine, I think to rally support from Christians for his push to topple the eastern emperor Licenius, had the text of Josephus Antiquities 18 amended to make Maximinus' Acta dating of their savior's events, and the description of his deeds as given in these Acta, impossible. In the end, he was successful and became emperor of a united empire around 324 (well, with his son Crispus as a Caesar) or 326/7 (sole emperor without any Caesars). The dates for the interpolation could be anytime from 313 CE onwards, maybe even 305 onwards if he felt he needed to gain Christian approval. After all, Eusebius was a Bishop in Caesarea in Palestine, smack in Maximinus' domain, and Constantine certainly had Eusebius' support.

Could the TF have been interpolated at about the same time as the change to make Maximinus Daia a liar?

Eusebius' writing history is not fully understood, but it went something like this:
  • *Before 300: Eusebius composes the first editions of the Chronicle and Ecclesiastical History (in seven books)
    *Late 313?: Eusebius produces new edition of Ecclesiastical History incorporating revised version of the Martyrs of Palestine (short recension) and an account of Maximinus in 311-313 (Book Nine)
    *c. 314-c. 318: Eusebius composes the Preparation for the Gospel
    *c. 315: New edition of Ecclesiastical History, which includes the present Book Eight and 10.1-7
    *c. 318-c. 323: Eusebius composes Demonstration of the Gospel
    *325/6: Eusebius publishes final edition of Ecclesiastical History and second edition of the Chronicle (and probably writes the Theophany)

Just food for thought ...

DCH
Here is another thought..... :)

The Lukan writer! That writer needed the Jesus figure alive at the 15th year of Tiberius. That would be a hard sell if the Acts of Pilate crucifixion story, a story set in the fourth consulship of Tiberius (21 C.E.) was common knowledge. Moving the TF (a core version of it) from it's Josephus context would not be an option (i.e. it was known to be there and was being used via the Acts of Pilate). The easier option would be to jumble the years Josephus had assigned to the Roman governors. Thus, allowing ambiguity to provide support to the Lukan writer's 15th year of Tiberius.

Eusebius? He simply took gLuke's Emmaus story and updated the TF. gLuke's Emmaus story is an updated version of the wonder doer story in Slavonic Josephus. i.e. gLuke linked the wonder-doer of Slavonic Josephus to the gospel Jesus, Christ, figure. Eusebius did not simply make the TF more christian - he made the TF more Lukan. Thereby, seeking to move away from the Acts of Pilate and it's fourth consulship of Tiberius (21 C.E.)
----------------
That the language used in the TF is not Josephan is neither here nor there. It is not necessary that Josephus either originated it or believed it. What his sources were he does not say.....
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote:
Carrier has quite a bit positive to say about Hopper's linguistic analysis.

DCH
Incidentally and no doubt of interest to some here, I had a little correspondence with Paul Hopper in February two years ago in which he gave his approval to be added to my blog list of "Who's Who: Mythicists and Mythicist Agnostics" -- a task that I still have in my "to do" pile.
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

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neilgodfrey wrote:
FransJVermeiren wrote: If Josephus had placed a reference to Jesus anywhere there then his Jesus would have had to have been either depicted as a leader of trouble-makers who contributed to the fall of Jerusalem or depicted as a righteous victim whose mistreatment contributed to the fall of Jerusalem.

I believe it is quite important to combine things correctly. If a) the Testimonium is false and b) Origins says that Josephus did not see Jesus as the Christ, then we have to look at a Jesus in Josephus apart from the Testimonium, a down-to-earth Jesus preferably.
Does that follow? Had Origen said Josephus believed Jesus was such and such, say, a "down-to-earth" fellow, etc, then yes, we would look for that portrait of Jesus in Josephus.

But if Origen says Josephus does not indicated any belief that Jesus is Messiah, then it follows that he is as like as not made no reference to him.
If the Testimonium is false, there are two possibilities for Josephus’s writings concerning Jesus:
a) Josephus did not mention the Jesus of the Gospels
b) Josephus mentioned the Jesus of the Gospels, but the latter one not ‘being Christ’.

In his Commentary on Matthew X:17,9 Origen says: “And the wondrous thing is that, although he (Josephus) did not accept our Jesus to be Christ, …”
Is this the way to say that Josephus didn’t mention Jesus? Would Origen use the verb καταδεχομαι (to accept) in this case? I don’t think so. Using the verb ‘to accept’ indicates that Josephus did not ascribe the ‘Christ’ title to a Jesus who is present in his writings. I understand that this is a not an attractive prospect for a lot of people because the next question is: which Jesus in the writings of Josephus do you choose as the Jesus which the Christians proclaimed as their Christ?

I already made my choice: the Jesus of the Gospels is Jesus son of Saphat in Josephus. He was a Galilean rebellion leader, leader of the fishermen etcetera (see above). The writer of the first gospel has antedated the life and activities of this Jesus by forty years to obscure him for the hostile Romans. If you read the gospels and some other early Christian writings attentively, you’ll find numerous hints to this time shift away from the war against the Romans. Or you read my A Chronological Revision of the Origins of Christianity. I have already done the work.
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:
Eusebius? He simply took gLuke's Emmaus story and updated the TF. .. gLuke's Emmaus story is an updated version of the wonder doer story in Slavonic Josephus.
  • i.e. gLuke linked the wonder-doer of Slavonic Josephus to the gospel Jesus, Christ, figure.
Eusebius did not simply make the TF more christian - he made the TF more Lukan. Thereby, seeking to move away from the Acts of Pilate and it's fourth consulship of Tiberius (21 C.E.)
.
  • An interesting proposition.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by MrMacSon »

FransJVermeiren wrote:
If the Testimonium is false, there are two possibilities for Josephus’s writings concerning Jesus:
  • a) Josephus did not mention the Jesus of the Gospels
    b) Josephus mentioned 'the Jesus of the Gospels', but the latter one not ‘being Christ’.
  • What if the Gospels had not been written by the time Josephus had died?
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Re: Understanding The Testimonium Flavianum

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Can you tell me what difference that makes?

The important point is that Origen did not only know the Gospel stories depicting Jesus as the Christ (by the time Origen wrote the Gospels surely had been written), but that he also knew the historical war events behind the antedated gospels.

The Testimonium, like the interpolation in Tacitus's Annals, is a quite transparant attempt to consolidate the forged chronology of the Gospels.
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The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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