A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priority

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

An excellent point that could lead to an interesting discussion. :cheers: :ugeek:
Ulan wrote:I'm not even sure whether the point of the OP is notable. This argument has been trotted out for ages by "conservative" scholars who "prove" that the apostles wrote the first gospel(s) directly after the death of Jesus, like by Karl Jaroš and similar people.
But it ends up as an apologetic argument by conservative scholars and by new Marcionites. :tombstone:
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

But surely it is imperative to understand the POV of early sects of Christianity. This is hardly apologetics. It is sympathy, empathy, intimacy, whatever you want to call it. It is what makes good lovers good lovers and in essence we are making love with antiquity whenever we try to understand it, we make love with all things we try and understand. We enter into intimacy and if we are lucky, our endevors bear fruit. Can't just treat people and traditions like pieces of meat or obstacles or assistance for your own personal agenda(s). Love is the answer.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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rakovsky
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by rakovsky »

Secret Alias wrote:No of course not. He doesn't see the implications of his discovery. Nevertheless it's there. Paul knew a written text of the gospel (for what other Christian text could have used as the basis of a new covenant). It has to be the gospel, the gospel juxtaposed against the Pentateuch.
A. Paul or at least PseudoPaul knew Lukes gospel, because he cites it openly via a verse as scripture.

B. Juxtaposing the OT to the nt is not necessarily marcionite. Eg in Jer. 30 to 33 it talks about the new covenant.

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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument and Marcionite Priorit

Post by arnoldo »

rakovsky wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:No of course not. He doesn't see the implications of his discovery. Nevertheless it's there. Paul knew a written text of the gospel (for what other Christian text could have used as the basis of a new covenant). It has to be the gospel, the gospel juxtaposed against the Pentateuch.
A. Paul or at least PseudoPaul knew Lukes gospel, because he cites it openly via a verse as scripture.

B. Juxtaposing the OT to the nt is not necessarily marcionite. Eg in Jer. 30 to 33 it talks about the new covenant.
C. Paul knew Q/sayings?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
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DCHindley
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument and Marcionite Priorit

Post by DCHindley »

arnoldo wrote:
rakovsky wrote:A. Paul or at least PseudoPaul knew Lukes gospel, because he cites it openly via a verse as scripture.

B. Juxtaposing the OT to the nt is not necessarily marcionite. Eg in Jer. 30 to 33 it talks about the new covenant.
C. Paul knew Q/sayings?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
In 1 Corinthians 14.23-26, there is a section on the Bread & Cup that I regard as a large interpolation, from an editor, based on the synoptic gospels, although the order is that of Mt & Mk the content tends to follow Lk, which is all jumbled as we have it:

Προς Κορινθίους Α΄ (NA 27th ed)
1 Corinthians (RSV, with changes required by this analysis)
(Compare 11:23b-25 with Mt 26:26-29)
(Compare 11:23b-25 with Mk 14:22-25)
(Compare 11:23b-25 with Lk 22:14-20)
14.23a Ἐγὼ γὰρ παρέλαβον ἀπὸ τοῦ κυρίου, ὃ καὶ παρέδωκα ὑμῖν, 14.23a For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you,
23b ὅτι ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ᾗ παρεδίδετο 23b that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed Mt 26.26a Now as they were eating, Mk 14.22a And as they were eating, Lk 22.14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him.
23c ἔλαβεν ἄρτον 23c (he) took bread, 26b Jesus took bread, 22b he took bread, 19a And he took bread,
15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
24a καὶ εὐχαριστήσας ἔκλασεν 24a and when he had given thanks, he broke it, 26c and blessed, and broke it, 22c and blessed, and broke it, 19b and when he had given thanks he broke it
26d and gave it to the disciples 22d and gave it to them, 19c and gave it to them,
24b καὶ εἶπεν· 24b and said, 26e and said, 22e and said, 19d saying,
26f "Take, 22f "Take;
26g eat;
24b τοῦτό μού ἐστιν τὸ σῶμα τὸ ὑπὲρ *ὑμῶν*· 24b "This is my body which is for *you*. 26h this is my body." 22g this is my body." 19e "This is my body which is given for you.
24c τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν. 24c Do this in remembrance of me." 19f Do this in remembrance of me."
25a ὡσαύτως καὶ τὸ ποτήριον 25a In the same way also the cup, 27a And he took a cup, 23a And he took a cup, 17a And he took a cup,
20a And likewise the cup
25b μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι 25b after supper, 20b after supper,
27b and when he had given thanks 23b and when he had given thanks 17b and when he had given thanks
27c he gave it to them, 23c he gave it to them, 17d "Take this,
25c λέγων· 25c saying, 27d saying, 17c he said,
27e "Drink of it, all of you; 23d and they all drank of it. 17e and divide it among yourselves;
24a And he said to them, 20c saying,
25d τοῦτο τὸ ποτήριον 25d "This cup 20d "This cup
25e ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη ἐστὶν ἐν τῷ ἐμῷ αἵματι· 25e (is) the new covenant in my blood. 28a for this is my blood of the covenant, 24b "This is my blood of the covenant, 20f is the new covenant in my blood.
28b which is poured out for many 24c which is poured out for many. 20e which is poured out for you
28c for the forgiveness of sins.
25f τοῦτο ποιεῖτε, ὁσάκις ἐὰν πίνητε, εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν. 25f Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26 ὁσάκις γὰρ ἐὰν ἐσθίητε τὸν ἄρτον τοῦτον καὶ τὸ ποτήριον πίνητε, τὸν θάνατον τοῦ κυρίου καταγγέλλετε ἄχρι οὗ ἔλθῃ. 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." 25 Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

1 Cor 9.14 seems to be a weak allusion to Lk 10.7, which is a Q saying per Burton Mack (QS20) & John Kloppenborg (S22) but it can only relate to sentiment, as the wording is different:

Προς Κορινθίους Α΄ (NA 27th ed)
1 Corinthians (RSV, with changes required by this analysis)
[/b]
[/b]
9.14 οὕτως καὶ ὁ κύριος διέταξεν τοῖς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον καταγγέλλουσιν ἐκ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ζῆν. (cf Luk 10:7) 14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. (cf Luk 10:7) (BGT Luk 10:7) ἐν αὐτῇ δὲ τῇ οἰκίᾳ μένετε ἐσθίοντες καὶ πίνοντες τὰ παρ᾽ αὐτῶν· ἄξιος γὰρ ὁ ἐργάτης τοῦ μισθοῦ αὐτοῦ. μὴ μεταβαίνετε ἐξ οἰκίας εἰς οἰκίαν. (RSV Luk 10:7) And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.

In Romans 12.6-21 there is a section full of maxims, some common place/sense and some based on Judean scriptures, that I attribute to an editorial insertion. There is a pretty weak allusion to Luke 6.27 at Romans 12.14 & Luke 6.29 at Romans 12.17, which correspond to Mack's QS09 and Kloppenborg's S09, but again only the sentiment matches, not the words.

Πρὸς Ῥωμαῖοι
Romans
[/b]
[/b]
12:6b εἴτε προφητείαν κατὰ τὴν ἀναλογίαν τῆς πίστεως, 12:6b if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
12:7 εἴτε διακονίαν ἐν τῇ διακονίᾳ, εἴτε ὁ διδάσκων ἐν τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, 12:7 if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching;
12:8 εἴτε ὁ παρακαλῶν ἐν τῇ παρακλήσει· ὁ μεταδιδοὺς ἐν ἁπλότητι, ὁ προϊστάμενος ἐν σπουδῇ, ὁ ἐλεῶν ἐν ἱλαρότητι. 12:8 he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
12:9 Ἡ ἀγάπη ἀνυπόκριτος. ἀποστυγοῦντες τὸ πονηρόν, κολλώμενοι τῷ ἀγαθῷ, 12:9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;
12:10 τῇ φιλαδελφίᾳ εἰς ἀλλήλους φιλόστοργοι, τῇ τιμῇ ἀλλήλους προηγούμενοι, 12:10 love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.
12:11 τῇ σπουδῇ μὴ ὀκνηροί, τῷ πνεύματι ζέοντες, τῷ *κυρίῳ* δουλεύοντες, 12:11 Never flag in zeal, be boiling with the Spirit, be serving the *Lord*.
12:12 τῇ ἐλπίδι χαίροντες, τῇ θλίψει ὑπομένοντες, τῇ προσευχῇ προσκαρτεροῦντες, 12:12 Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
12:13 ταῖς χρείαις τῶν ἁγίων κοινωνοῦντες, τὴν φιλοξενίαν διώκοντες. 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality.
12:14 εὐλογεῖτε τοὺς *διώκοντας [ὑμᾶς]*, εὐλογεῖτε καὶ μὴ καταρᾶσθε. (cf. Luk 6:27) 12:14 Bless those who *persecute you*; bless and do not curse them. (cf. Luk 6:27) (Luk 6:27) Ἀλλὰ ὑμῖν λέγω τοῖς ἀκούουσιν· ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν, καλῶς ποιεῖτε τοῖς μισοῦσιν ὑμᾶς, (RSV Luk 6:27) RSV Luke 6:27 "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
12:15 χαίρειν μετὰ χαιρόντων, κλαίειν μετὰ κλαιόντων. 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
12:16 τὸ αὐτὸ εἰς ἀλλήλους φρονοῦντες, μὴ τὰ ὑψηλὰ φρονοῦντες ἀλλὰ τοῖς ταπεινοῖς συναπαγόμενοι. μὴ γίνεσθε φρόνιμοι παρ᾽ ἑαυτοῖς. 12:16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited.
12:17a μηδενὶ κακὸν ἀντὶ κακοῦ ἀποδιδόντες (Luk 6:29), 12:17a Repay no one evil for evil (Luk 6:29), (Luk 6:29) τῷ τύπτοντί σε ἐπὶ τὴν σιαγόνα πάρεχε καὶ τὴν ἄλλην, καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἴροντός σου τὸ ἱμάτιον καὶ τὸν χιτῶνα μὴ κωλύσῃς. (RSV Luk 6:29) To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.
12:17b προνοούμενοι καλὰ ἐνώπιον πάντων ἀνθρώπων·(Pro 3:4) 12:17b but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. (Pro 3:4) (Pro 3:4) καὶ προνοοῦ καλὰ ἐνώπιον κυρίου καὶ ἀνθρώπων (Pro 3:4) and do thou provide things honest in the sight of the Lord, and of men.
12:18 εἰ δυνατὸν τὸ ἐξ ὑμῶν, μετὰ πάντων ἀνθρώπων εἰρηνεύοντες·(Heb 12:14) 12:18 If it is in your power to do so, live peaceably with all men. (Heb 12:14) (Heb 12:14) Εἰρήνην διώκετε μετὰ πάντων καὶ τὸν ἁγιασμόν, οὗ χωρὶς οὐδεὶς ὄψεται τὸν κύριον, (RSV Heb 12:14) Strive for peace with all (men), and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
12:19 μὴ ἑαυτοὺς ἐκδικοῦντες, ἀγαπητοί, ἀλλὰ δότε τόπον τῇ ὀργῇ, γέγραπται γάρ· ἐμοὶ ἐκδίκησις, ἐγὼ ἀνταποδώσω, λέγει κύριος. (Deu 32:35) 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath (of God); for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord. (Deu 32:35) (Deu 32:35) ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ἐκδικήσεως ἀνταποδώσω ἐν καιρῷ (Deu 32:35) In the day of vengeance I will recompense,
12:20 ἀλλὰ ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διψᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν· τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ. (Pro 25:21-22) 12:20 No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." (Pro 25:21-22) (Pro 25:21-22) 21 ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου τρέφε αὐτόν ἐὰν διψᾷ πότιζε αὐτόν 22 τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ ὁ δὲ κύριος ἀνταποδώσει σοι ἀγαθά (Pro 25:21-22) 21 If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; 22 for so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee with good.
12:21 μὴ νικῶ ὑπὸ τοῦ κακοῦ ἀλλὰ νίκα ἐν τῷ ἀγαθῷ τὸ κακόν. 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

"Ding dong dangy," said Jed Clampett.

Unfortunatelly, any relationship to Q as defined by Kloppenborg or Mack is pretty tenuous.

Still, I vaguely recall finding something once that seemed "Q" like, but it may have been in one of the pastorals. It is currently not jumping out at me.

DCH
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priorit

Post by Bernard Muller »

A. Paul or at least PseudoPaul knew Lukes gospel, because he cites it openly via a verse as scripture.
That must be a reference to 1 Timothy 5:18:
"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his wages."
The last phrase is in Lk 10:7:
“And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house."
However if 1 Timothy (one of the "pastorals") was written well into the second century (and certainly not by Paul), with gLuke written towards the end of the first century, that certainly would not prove Paul knew about gLuke.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priorit

Post by Bernard Muller »

In 1 Corinthians 14.23-26, there is a section on the Bread & Cup that I regard as a large interpolation, from an editor, based on the synoptic gospels, although the order is that of Mt & Mk the content tends to follow Lk, which is all jumbled as we have it:
I think 1 Corinthians 11:23-28, plus "Lord's" in verse 29, is an interpolation: http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html#adb
"which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Lk 22:19b-20) is also an interpolation based on itself on part of the interpolation of 1 Cor 11:23-28: http://historical-jesus.info/64.html, section 3.
Therefore, that would not prove Paul knew about gLuke.

Cordially, Bernard
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andrewcriddle
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priorit

Post by andrewcriddle »

Bernard Muller wrote:
A. Paul or at least PseudoPaul knew Lukes gospel, because he cites it openly via a verse as scripture.
That must be a reference to 1 Timothy 5:18:
"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his wages."
The last phrase is in Lk 10:7:
“And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house."
However if 1 Timothy (one of the "pastorals") was written well into the second century (and certainly not by Paul), with gLuke written towards the end of the first century, that certainly would not prove Paul knew about gLuke.

Cordially, Bernard
FWIW some have suggested that Luke was the author of the pastorals.

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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

FWIW some have suggested that Luke was the author of the pastorals.
If anyone cares to hear the opinion of a madman I couple this supposition along with Clement's statement about Luke 'rendering' or translating Hebrews into Greek to a broader consideration. I think there were original texts or fragments behind Acts, the Pastorals and Hebrews which were 'rendered' into Greek or transformed under the hand of 'Luke.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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