A Conservative Scholar's Discovery -> Marcionite Priority

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

The old me we be frustrated at this point. I am not saying that the conservative scholar is arguing for Marcionite primacy. I am saying that his argument is, his interpretation of the plain meaning of a statement made in 2 Corinthians. The implications of saying that Paul understands covenants to be read - both old and now new - implies that Paul had a written gospel and this squares with what he know about the Marcionites understanding of Paul being the author of what must have been a proto-gospel, a gospel which preceded the canonical four.

Why 'precede'? Not because I think that the gospel of Marcion should be first but because the evidence - such as that linked above - points to a situation which is at odds with the Catholic explanation of various statements in the Pauline writings which point to Paul having in his possession a 'gospel' of some sort.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

The only written Christian text which could have been used as the basis to a covenant is the gospel. Paul not only speaks of the gospel being 'his' but now clearly that 'his' gospel was written down in his lifetime (and not delayed or delegated off to another person as Catholic writers assume with regards to Luke) and used for covenant or community building in a manner parallel to the Pentateuch. The closest document which seems to fulfill the kind of 'covenant-building' utility of the gospel identified here IMHO is of course Secret Mark where Clement in the letter to Theodore understands that it was used to initiate catechumen (and thus build the community of Christians in Alexandria). A secret gospel also seems to square with Paul's statement that some aspect of the gospel was 'secret' or hidden in 2 Corinthians.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

Note also the parallels between the 'hiding of the name of the author' of the gospel in To Theodore and the various statements about the Marcionite gospel (i.e. the Pauline gospel) not having an author named at the incipit http://www.ndl.go.jp/incunabula/e/glossary/glo_02.html of the gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

Speaking as a moderator, I do think the thread title is misleading. I think the same point could be made just by inserting the word "accidental" into the title, perhaps with a question mark, i.e "A Conservative Scholar's Accidental Argument for Marcionite Priority?" that would preserve SA's intention without implying that it was intentional.

I'm not going to take any action, but I am going to ask Secret Alias to try to use more accurately descriptive titles. I don't think you would have gotten any fewer clicks with the title I suggested.
Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic on Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

It isn't a matter of deception. It's about available wording space allowed in the title bar when you create the thread.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Ulan
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Ulan »

I'm not even sure whether the point of the OP is notable. This argument has been trotted out for ages by "conservative" scholars who "prove" that the apostles wrote the first gospel(s) directly after the death of Jesus, like by Karl Jaroš and similar people.
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

I guess I am the dumbest guy in the room but I don't understand why the fact that a conservative makes an argument to further a conservative cause has anything to do with why the same observation might be used to another purpose - in this case Marcionite priority. Is there a reason why it seems I am speaking with rest of you to cross purposes. Why does it matter if - theoretically - the man who discovers the cure to cancer was a pedophile? We can't cure people of cancer because he is a moral reprobate?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

And WTF is this "I'm not going to take any action" business? We have John Wayne as a moderator walking around the perimeter of the town with a loaded shotgun? Take any action based on what? Why not add more words to the title bar?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by Secret Alias »

The correct title would have been:

A Conservative Scholar's Discovery and Its Application For the Purpose of Establishing Marcionite Priority

Is that better?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: A Conservative Scholar's Argument for Marcionite Priorit

Post by andrewcriddle »

One problem I have here:

Assuming for the sake of argument that we have evidence that Paul made use of a written Gospel which resembled Luke, how does this provide evidence that this text agreed with Marcion's Gospel rather than with canonical Luke ?

Andrew Criddle
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