Could some accounts of Basilides be accounts of Josephus?

[MrMacSon]

.
There are no references to Josephus in the works of Tacitus, but there is in Suetonius [following reference to the oracle of the god of Carmel in Judaea]: -

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars; The Life of Vespasian

5 6 When [Vespasian] consulted the oracle of the god of Carmel in Judaea, the lots were highly encouraging, promising that whatever he planned or wished however great it might be, would come to pass; and one of his high-born prisoners, Josephus by name, as he was being put in chains, declared most confidently that he would soon be released by the same man, who would then, however, be emperor. 7 Omens were also reported from Rome: Nero in his latter days was admonished in a dream to take the sacred chariot of Jupiter Optimus Maximus from its shrine to the house of Vespasian and from there to the Circus. Not long after this, too, when Galba was on his way to the elections which gave him his second consulship, a statue of the Deified Julius of its own accord turned towards the East; and on the field of Betriacum, before the battle began, two eagles fought in the sight of all, and when one was vanquished, a third came from the direction of the rising sun and drove off the victor.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/r ... sian*.html

Then, a couple of passages [chapters] later, Suetonius mentions a Basilides as a freedman at 7,1 (Josephus was a freedman(?)): -

7 1 Therefore beginning a civil war and sending ahead generals with troops to Italy, [Vespasian] crossed meanwhile to Alexandria, to take possession of the key to Egypt. There he dismissed all his attendants and entered the temple of Serapis alone, to consult the auspices as to the duration of his power. And when after many propitiatory offerings to the god he at length turned about, it seemed to him that his freedman Basilides19 offered him sacred boughs, garlands, and loaves, as is the custom there; and yet he knew well that no one had let him in, and that for some time he had been hardly able to walk by reason of rheumatism, and was besides far away. And immediately letters came with the news that Vitellius had been routed at Cremona and the emperor himself slain at Rome.

It is noteworthy what immediately follows is accounts of Vespasian healing a blind man, and a man's limb [a leg]: -

7 2 Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. 3 Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

8 1 Returning to Rome under such auspices and attended by so great renown, after celebrating a triumph over the Jews, he added eight consulships to his former one; he also assumed the censorship and during the whole period of his rule he considered nothing more essential than first to strengthen the State, which was tottering and almost overthrown, and then to embellish it as well.

Tacticus seems to repeat aspects of Josephus's Jewish War with Basilides inserted into Tacitus's accounts: Histories 2,78 and 4, 82; same name, same role, yet difference places; one at Mount Carmel, but the other in Alexandria.


In Wars, 6.5.4, Josephus interprets the oracle to be a prophecy concerning Vespasian: -

...they had it written in their sacred oracles, that “then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four square.” But now what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle, that was also found in their sacred writings; how “About that time one, from their country, should become governor of the habitable earth.” The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular: and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian: who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate: although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure; and some of them they utterly despised: until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city, and their own destruction.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-6.html

In Tacitus Histories 2, 78, the oracle is interpreted by a Basilides, who states ' there is given you a vast habitation, boundless territory, a multitude of men'; which could [also] align Basilides with Josephus.

78 1 After Mucianus had spoken, the rest became bolder; they gathered about Vespasian, encouraged him, and recalled the prophecies of seers and the movements of the stars. Nor indeed was he wholly free from such superstitious belief, as was evident later when he had obtained supreme power, for he openly kept at court an astrologer named Seleucus, whom he regarded as his guide and oracle. Old omens came back to his mind: once on his country estate a cypress of conspicuous height suddenly fell, but the next day it rose again on the selfsame spot fresh, tall, and with wider expanse than before. This occurrence was a favourable omen of great significance, as the haruspices all agreed, and promised the highest distinctions for Vespasian, who was then still a young man. At first, however, the insignia of a triumph, his consulship, and his victory over Judea appeared to have fulfilled the promise given by the omen; yet after he had gained these honours, he began to think that it was the imperial throne that was foretold. Between Judea and Syria lies Carmel: this is the name given to both the mountain and the divinity. The god has no image or temple — such is the rule handed down by the fathers; there is only an altar and the worship of the god. When Vespasian was sacrificing there and thinking over his secret hopes in his heart, the priest Basilides, after repeated inspection of the victim's vitals, said to him: "Whatever you are planning, Vespasian, whether to build a house, or to enlarge your holdings, or to increase the number of your slaves, the god grants you a mighty home, limitless bounds, and a multitude of men." This obscure oracle rumour had caught up at the time, and now was trying to interpret; nothing indeed was more often on men's lips. It was discussed even more in Vespasian's presence — for men have more to say to those who are filled with hope. The two leaders now separated with clear purposes before them, Mucianus going to Antioch, Vespasian to Caesarea. Antioch is the capital of Syria, Caesarea of Judea.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/2B*.html

• It's noteworthy that that passage is immediately after the passage about Jesus ben Annanus, which starts

  De Bello Judaico 6,5,3 [middle]: -
  "Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost; as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple,10 as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise: and after that they heard a sound, as of a multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” But what is still more terrible; there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian, and an husbandman, who, four years before the war began; and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity; came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (17) began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east; a voice from the west; a voice from the four winds; a voice against Jerusalem, and the holy house; a voice against the bridegrooms, and the brides; and a voice against this whole people.” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city."

  and ends

  De Bello Judaico 6,5,3 [end]: -
  "This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years, and five months; without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith. Until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege; when it ceased. For as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house.” And just as he added at the last, “Woe, woe to myself also,” there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately. And as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."

Basilides of Alexandria appears an oracular force in Histories 4, 82, also assuring the throne of Vespasian

• after the accounts of Vespasian healing a blind man with spittle, and healing a deformed limb [a hand, in this case]: -

81 1 During the months while Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the regular season of the summer winds and a settled sea,4 many marvels continued to mark the favour of heaven and a certain partiality of the gods toward him.[/color] One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his loss of sight, threw himself before Vespasian's knees, praying him with groans to cure his blindness, being so directed by the god Serapis, whom this most superstitious of nations worships before all others; and he besought the emperor to deign to moisten his cheeks and eyes with his spittle. Another, whose hand was useless, prompted by the same god, begged Caesar to step and trample on it. Vespasian at first ridiculed these appeals and treated them with scorn; then, when the men persisted, he began at one moment to fear the discredit of failure, at another to be inspired with hopes of success by the appeals of the suppliants and the flattery of his courtiers: finally, he directed the physicians to give their opinion as to whether such blindness and infirmity could be overcome by human aid. Their reply treated the two cases differently: they said that in the first the power of sight had not been completely eaten away and it would return if the obstacles were removed; in the other, the joints had slipped and become displaced, but they could be restored if a healing pressure were applied to them. Such perhaps was the wish of the gods, and it might be that the emperor had been chosen for this divine service; in any case, if a cure were obtained, the glory would be Caesar's, but in the event of failure, ridicule would fall only on the poor suppliants. So Vespasian, believing that his good fortune was capable of anything and that nothing was any longer incredible, with a smiling countenance, and amid intense excitement on the part of the bystanders, did as he was asked to do. The hand was instantly restored to use, and the day again shone for the blind man. Both facts are told by eye-witnesses even now when falsehood brings no reward.

82 1 These events gave Vespasian a deeper desire to visit the sanctuary of the god to consult him with regard to his imperial fortune: he ordered all to be excluded from the temple. Then after he had entered the temple and was absorbed in contemplation of the god, he saw behind him one of the leading men of Egypt, named Basilides,5 who he knew was detained by sickness in a place many days' journey distant from Alexandria. He asked the priests whether Basilides had entered the temple on that day; he questioned the passers-by whether he had been seen in the city; finally, he sent some cavalry and found that at that moment he had been eighty miles away: then he concluded that this was a supernatural vision and drew a prophecy from the name Basilides.

83 1 The origin of this god has not yet been generally treated by our authors: the Egyptian priests tell the following story, that when King Ptolemy,6 the first of the Macedonians to put the power of Egypt on a firm foundation, was giving the new city of Alexandria walls, temples, and religious rites, there appeared to him in his sleep a vision of a young man of extraordinary beauty and of more than human stature, who warned him to send his most faithful friends to Pontus and bring his statue hither; the vision said that this act would be a happy thing for the kingdom and that the city that received the god would be great and famous: after these words the youth seemed to be carried to heaven in a blaze of fire. Ptolemy, moved by this miraculous omen, disclosed this nocturnal vision to the Egyptian priests, whose business it is to interpret such things. When they proved to know little of Pontus and foreign countries, he questioned Timotheus, an Athenian of the clan of the Eumolpidae,7 whom he had called from Eleusis to preside over the sacred rites, and asked him what this religion was and what the divinity meant. Timotheus learned by questioning men who had travelled to Pontus that there was a city there called Sinope, and that not far from it there was a temple of Jupiter Dis,8 long famous among the natives: for there sits beside the god a female figure which most call Proserpina.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/4D*.html

'Basilides' is not mentioned in Josephus but, as noted & cited above, he is also mentioned by Suetonius (The Lives of the Caesars; The Life of Vespasian 7,1): -

Why did Tacitus not refer to Josephus? Did Tacitus know Josephus? If not, why not? Did Tacitus know him as Basilides? or seek to portray him as Basilides? (which means 'Son of a King' (Josephus claimed descent from royalty)).

There was a Basilides who was an early Gnostic religious teacher in Alexandria, Egypt. Does that Basilides -claimed to be part of early Christianity- represent accounts of Josephus? or include accounts of Josephus?

---

[MrMacSon]

.
An interesting commentary of accounts of Basilides - http://www.dacb.org/stories/egypt/basilides_.html

...Basilides may well be among the several originators of The Christian School at Alexandria, since the Tradition recalled by name no one earlier than him within Egypt, as teacher of Christian intent, even if "Gnostic" by self-definition or subsequent condemnation, though one cannot ignore previous Jewish developments within Alexandria, as witnessed by Josephus (and quoted by Eusebius) or evidenced by Philo (named along with Josephus among the "Illustrious Men" by Jerome).

Previously: -

Basilides was identified as having received from Matthias "secret words which he had heard from the Saviour in private instruction" [Hippolytus, Refutation VII.viii apud Grant 1961b: 137; ANF V (1886) 103] or as being in the "succession" from "Glaukias, the 'interpreter' of Peter" (Clement, Stromateis VII.106.4 apud Grant 1961b: 137), so that his own "school" was but one among several indicative of "the variety and audacity of the intellectual life in the various academies" of second century Alexandria (Carrington 1957: I.421; cf. Grant 1970: 200).

Later: -

In fact, it is from the kind of perspective on the activities of the "Egyptian false prophet" related by Josephus (De bello Judaico II.13.5 apud H.E. II.21; Whiston 1960: 483) or on those of the Therapeutae detailed by Philo (De vita contemplativa apud H.E. II.17; Yonge 1993: 698-706), that there probably arose the kinds of misapprehensions that ascribed to the early Christian gnostics, like Basilides and his successors, pejorative connotations. Such described them second-hand without genuinely listening to, or learning from them, as one was to have found being done much earlier in the days and writings of Clement of Alexandria and his successor Origen -- critical as these rightly had to become of many of their predecessors, while recognizing within their own teaching legitimate "gnostic" elements.

then: -

Eusebius knew, through Agrippa Castor, of Basilides as author of a volume of twenty-four books on the Gospel entitled "Exegetics" (Grant 1957: 127), but for the obvious reason of identifying him among his "succession of heresies" gave no citations, as was his custom with respect to the "succession of the orthodox" (H.E. IV.7.7). But two significant portions of that work are preserved, that of book 13 within the fourth century anti-Manichaean disputation known as the Acta Archelai (lxvii.5-11; Ayer 1913: 82-84; Grant 1946: 18-19; Grant 1961: 135-136), and that of book 23 by Clement of Alexandria of the late second century in his Stromateis (IV.12.81-83; Ayer 1913: 84-85; Grant 1946: 19-20; Stevenson 1957: 83; Grant 1961: 136-137).

More extensive summaries of Basilides' "system", though written from the pespective of his refutation, appear independently within Irenaeus (c. 115-202) of Lyons in Gaul (cf. Q1.8.2.2 pp. 288-292), and Hippolytus (c. 155-235) of Rome (cf. Q2.3.3 pp. 166-169; Smith 1988 III.999-1004), each providing a somewhat distinctive impression of that portion of Basilides which had most offended the rebutting author, even if what these two have in common is their attack "against all heresies" (cf. Grant 1997: 15). That given by Irenaeus is relatively brief, less philosophical, and focuses upon those docetic tendencies (Grant 1961a: 10) which would undermine the soteriology of the crucifixion, as well as providing hints at numerological and astrological ingredients in Basilides' thought (Against all Heresies I.24; Stevenson 1957: 81-83; Grant 1961b: 33-35; Grant 1997: 91-92).

By contrast Hippolytus enters into the abstractive elements of the "system" within a context of the history of ancient Greek philosophy, perhaps derived from the "Exegetics" itself, whereby one is brought to the effort by Basilides to make sense out of the more ancient Hebraic creation narratives from a point-of-view derived from Aristotle (384-322 BC) but over against Philo (Grant 1966: 142-147), so that one could define a beginning from "nothing" with reference to the absolute transcendence of God, which made difficult an understanding of the incarnation of Jesus [Refutation of all Heresies VII.ii-xv; ANF V (1885) 101-109; Stevenson 1957: 75-80; Grant 1961b: 125-134]. A much more abbreviated version (cf. Q2.3.3 pp. 169-170 with Q2.4.2 p. 272) has come down among the writings of Tertullian (c. 160-220), under the title Libellus "against all heresies", which "is probably a Latin epitome of Hippolytus' Syntagma" (Grant 1946: 124), which brings Hippolytus more into line with Irenaeus (section 4; Grant 1946: 127). Basilides' thought remained more exegetical than philosophical, but of the kind demonstrated by the recovery of works like the "gospel of Philip" (Grant 1966: 144, 193-195).

Jerome does assert that Basilides had died at Alexandria during Hadrian's reign (117-138), which he seems to make more specific by a connected allusion to this being that "tempestuous time" when the Bar Kokhba (Simon son of Kosba) rebellion had occurred in which this "leader of the Jewish faction put Christians to death with various tortures" [ J 21; NPNF 2 III (1892) 368], which effectively narrows the date to 132-135 with the attacks against Christians earlier than the crushing of the revolt in Judaea by Hadrian's general, Sextus Julius Severus [OCD3 (1996) 663].

According to Agrippa Castor, Basilides had referred to "Barkabbas and Barkoph <with many variant spellings in the manuscripts> as his prophets" (H.E. IV.7.7 and J 21), so he might well have appeared to be parodying the name of the Jewish leader, for which he was included among those, when Bar Kokhba "ordered the Christians, and them alone, to be led off to terrible punishments unless they denied that Jesus was the Christ and blasphemed him" (Grant 1970: 84 citing Justin Martyr, Apology I.31.6). The Tradition remembered Basilides, however, not as "saint and martyr" but only as "gnostic and heretic." Yet Basilides had made "the earliest known attempt by a Christian to reconcile the Jewish requirement of righteous suffering with the Platonic view of Providence" so that "the result was the first major attack on the spiritual value of martyrdom" itself (Frend 1967: 181).

Clyde Curry Smith

[andrewcriddle]

Basilides the early gnostic leader appears to have been active in the time of Hadrian.

This would make him too late to be the Basilides who advised Vespasian.

Andrew Criddle

[MrMacSon]

Basilides the early gnostic leader appears to have been active in the time of Hadrian.

This would make him too late to be the Basilides who advised Vespasian.

Andrew Criddle

Tacitus's accounts of Basilides advising Vespasian were written during the time of Hadrian.

There is no Basilides in the accounts of Josephus about Vespasian, and Josephus was supposed to have been an eye-witness to those events involving Vespasian.

There are accounts of a Basilides in the writings of Suetonius [edited from 'no accounts']

There is no account about Josephus in Tacitus's works.

The proposition is that Tacitus's accounts about Basilides are really accounts about Josephus.

If that were the case, it might have implications for the accounts about Basilides the supposed early gnostic leader supposedly active in the time of Hadrian.

[John2]

MrMacSon wrote:

There is no account about Josephus in Tacitus's works.

I've been looking into Tacitus' use of sources, and Mellor, for example, notes that:

Scholars have spilled ink for more than a century in their quixotic hunt for Tacitus' precise sources. Much can be conjectured; little can be proven ... Tacitus himself rarely mentions specific sources for particular events...

https://books.google.com/books?id=GNd1L ... or&f=false

Which is not to say that Tacitus doesn't mention some of them (Mellor goes on to say, for example, that "at the beginning of his treatment of Nero he does assert his general reliance on Fabius Rusticus, Pliny the Elder, and Cluvius Rufus"), only that it wouldn't be unusual if he used Josephus without mentioning him.

[MrMacSon]

.
The OP has been edited to note that Suetonius did refer to Josephus, and to include his references to Basilides (in relation to his mentions of Vespasian's supposed healing powers)