Tacitus and Josephus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Tacitus and Josephus

Post by John2 »

I don't want to derail MrMacSon's Carrier thread so I thought I make a new one.

I already think that Tacitus knew Josephus, but now I'm wondering if some sort of TF (assuming there was one) could be where he got his information regarding Jesus too.

War 6.5.3:
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."


War 6.5.4:
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
Tacitus Histories 5.13:
Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.
Ant. 18.3.3:
He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Tacitus Annals 15.44:
...a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote:I don't want to derail MrMacSon's Carrier thread so I thought I make a new one.

I already think that Tacitus knew Josephus, but now I'm wondering if some sort of TF (assuming there was one) could be where he got his information regarding Jesus too.
You might be interested in this analysis by S. C. Carlson: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2004/08/ ... onium.html.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by John2 »

I haven't otherwise looked into the issue of whether or not Tacitus knew Josephus, and as I'm looking around I found this statement:
Suggestions have also been made that Tacitus got his information from Josephus, but this is rejected by Tacitean scholars: Mendell, for example, says that Tacitus "clearly knew nothing" about Josephus [Mende. Tac, 217 - see also Hada.FJos, 223].

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php
I wonder who has made the suggestion that Tacitus got his information from Josephus. The only things I've found so far are websites like these:

http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/02/2 ... n-the-sky/

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyAr ... louds.html

Oh, and I just noticed Ben's comment, so I will check out his Carlson link.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by John2 »

Wow, that a great article. Thanks, Ben. Carlson concludes it with:
A third possibility, that Tacitus obtained this information from Josephus, is only supported by a tiny number of scholars, the most famous of which was Adolf von Harnack, “Der jüdische Geschichtsschreiber Josephus und Jesus Christus,” IMWKT 7 (1913): 1037-68 (cite from Theissen and Merz, The Historical Jesus). J. P. Meier, Marginal Jew (1991: 1:101 n.12) also cites an article by Franz Dornsieff, “Lukas der Schriftsteller. Mit einem Anhang: Josephus und Tacitus,” ZNW 35 (1936): 148-55. Both of these thought that all the current form of the Testimonium was original to Josephus, a position no longer in vogue.

Given Tacitus’s probable access to Josephus, this possibility should be revisited.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote:
... Thanks, Ben. Carlson concludes it with:
A third possibility, that Tacitus obtained this information from Josephus, is only supported by a tiny number of scholars, the most famous of which was Adolf von Harnack, “Der jüdische Geschichtsschreiber Josephus und Jesus Christus,” IMWKT 7 (1913): 1037-68 (cite from Theissen and Merz, The Historical Jesus). J. P. Meier, Marginal Jew (1991: 1:101 n.12) also cites an article by Franz Dornsieff, “Lukas der Schriftsteller. Mit einem Anhang: Josephus und Tacitus,” ZNW 35 (1936): 148-55. Both of these thought that all the current form of the Testimonium was original to Josephus, a position no longer in vogue.

Given Tacitus’s probable access to Josephus, this possibility should be revisited ...
Carlson goes on to say

As can be seen from the chart, the entirety of Tacitus’s information about Jesus is paralleled in Josephus, AJ 18, if not in the Testimonium, then nearby in the book. Even more significant, the use of Josephus explains the erroneous title for Pontius Pilate. The Greek term Josephus used (ἡγεμών) was non-specific, and Tacitus had to guess (and guess incorrectly) what Pilate’s Latin title would have been.

http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2004/08/ ... onium.html
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by John2 »

Right. I was just going to edit my comment from "concludes with" to "mentions that" (it's busy night at work for me). What a great topic this is.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by John2 »

Ben sent me a link to an article he wrote regarding Goldberg, Carlson, Tacitus and the TF (which Ben says he no longer agrees with, but it seems worthy of consideration). I put it on MrMacSon's Carrier thread too because of the overlap in subjects.

http://www.textexcavation.com/goldbergc ... onium.html

What a stimulating night for me. Thanks everyone.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

Carlson refers to a previous article in which he says

Based on my experience with Eusebius, his style, and how he handles his quotations, I agreed, in my blog article of October 20, 2003 with Olson that the received text of the Testimonium has been worked over by Eusebius and that he may have identified the interpolator, but I still wasn’t convinced that Eusebius had composed the entirety of the Testimonium, as opposed to working over a pre-existing and less pro-Christian version of it. In support, I had mentioned a form of the Testimonium preserved in Arabic by the 10th century Agapius that lacks the apparently Eusebianized portions

http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2004/08/ ... ebius.html
So, we're back to Carrier's refutation which I summarize in this post on another thread
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote:Ben sent me a link to an article he wrote regarding Goldberg, Carlson, Tacitus and the TF (which Ben says he no longer agrees with, but it seems worthy of consideration). I put it on MrMacSon's Carrier thread too because of the overlap in subjects.

http://www.textexcavation.com/goldbergc ... onium.html

What a stimulating night for me. Thanks everyone.
As Ben notes on that webpage, there is " ..the distinct possibility of what Carlson proposes, that Tacitus learned about Christian origins from Josephus", but we are still left with the issue that Tacitus does not explicitly appear to acknowledge Josephus.

... Was Josephus available to Tacitus? Most certainly. Did Tacitus read Josephus? Most probably, given the similar comments on Vespasian as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. Did, then, Tacitus derive his paragraph on Christian origins from that of Josephus? I think it quite likely ...

.. And I submit that the parallels between these texts are sufficient to warrant some kind of explanation.

I offer, for close comparison and contrast, all four of our relevant texts. Let the reader decide how intertextually related they are.
  • Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 §63-64:

    Luke 24.18-21, 25-27:

    Tacitus, Annals 15.44:

    Agapius, History of the World
http://www.textexcavation.com/goldbergc ... onium.html
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Tacitus and Josephus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

MrMacSon wrote:As Ben notes on that webpage, there is " ..the distinct possibility of what Carlson proposes, that Tacitus learned about Christian origins from Josephus", but we are still left with the issue that Tacitus does not explicitly appear to acknowledge Josephus.
It could be also the other way around that the TT provoked the assumed interpolation in Josephus.
Post Reply