60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The Era

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by John2 »

The understanding is the plain meaning of the text.
It doesn't seem like it to me then, mainly because of Jer. 26, but also because the discussion about this in the link I gave earlier makes sense to me.
The text consistently uses a singular form when discussing a hypothetical, not to say that that hypothetical will happen on only one occasion but that the rule applies to whenever it happens. Devarim 24:1 speaks of finding a corpse, but does in the singular. This doesn't mean that it can only happen once. Even 18:10 which discusses the impermissibility of sorcerers says that A sorcerer should not be found among you. This doesn't mean that you must have more than one at a time for it to be OK. The use of the singular is to make a general case, not an exclusive moment. When Bamidbar 13 speaks of taking a man afflicted with tzara'at to THE kohen it does not mean that there will be only 1 kohen.

Note that the following verse also uses the singular noun. Note the use of the definitive article:

"But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'"

See also Deut. 13:2 which also deals with a false prophet: "If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet..."

The language is the same. Here the same term for "arise/raise" is used.

Clearly, there were many false prophets, so obviously the verse is not talking about a singular definitive false prophet. It stands to reason that the early verses are also not exclusive to a single prophet. Indeed, these verses are the source for the commandment to listen to the words of a true prophet. Obviously, this commandment refers to all true prophets through history.

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questi ... or-prophet
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

WTF does Jeremiah have to do with understanding a northern Israelite text like the Torah? What? Do you really believe that there is a culture on this earth that would write a religious text developed almost exclusively from the geographic locales of a neighboring people? Think man think. This is NOT a Jewish text. Even at Qumran Gerizim stands at the center of the Torah. As such what does Jeremiah have to do with understanding the Torah? :banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

It would be like having an 'American Bible' which document Vladimir Putin and his cronies gathering together in Moscow and establish sites around Moscow as holy places. Not likely to be an American Bible. In the same way the Pentateuch was written by someone associated with Gerizim or at least Shechem as such an 'Israelite' and not a Judean.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

And what kind of retarded source have you cited where 'Deuteronomy' is cited two different ways by the same author:
ppens. Devarim 24:1 speaks of finding a corpse, but does in the singular. This doesn't mean that it can only happen once. Even 18:10 which discusses the impermissibility of sorcerers says that A sorcerer should not be found among you. This doesn't mean that you must have more than one at a time for it to be OK. The use of the singular is to make a general case, not an exclusive moment. When Bamidbar 13 speaks of taking a man afflicted with tzara'at to THE kohen it does not mean that there will be only 1 kohen.

Note that the following verse also uses the singular noun. Note the use of the definitive article:

"But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'"

See also Deut. 13:2 which also deals with a false prophet:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

And how exactly does Jeremiah argue against the Samaritan understanding of the 'returning Moses' expectation:
The book's superscription claims that Jeremiah was active for forty years, from the thirteenth year of Josiah (627 BCE) to the fall of Jerusalem in 587. It is clear from the last chapters of the book, however, that he continued to speak in Egypt after the assassination of Gedaliah, the Babylonian-appointed governor of Judah, in 582. This suggests that the superscription is trying to make a theological point about Jeremiah by comparing him to Moses – where Moses spent forty years leading Israel from slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land, Jeremiah's forty years saw Israel exiled from the land and Jeremiah himself ultimately in exile in Egypt.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by John2 »

WTF does Jeremiah have to do with understanding a northern Israelite text like the Torah? What?
The idea that Jeremiah wrote Deuteronomy involves the fact that he does have connections to the fallen Northern Kingdom of Israel and is part of the explanation as to why the Deuteronomistic History contains material that pertains to the north. Jeremiah is the only prophet who mentions Samuel, who is a northern hero, for example.

And Lundbom notes that:
We learn from the superscription to the book that Jeremiah was born into a priestly family at Anathoth, a village three miles north of Jerusalem. Anathoth, although close to the capital city of the Southern Kingdom, nevertheless belonged to Benjamin, which was part of the Northern Kingdom, and it preserved northern traditions at the sanctuary there.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_ZuPC ... ts&f=false
Last edited by John2 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by John2 »

And what kind of retarded source have you cited where 'Deuteronomy' is cited two different ways by the same author:
Those comments were made by two different people. I said it was a discussion, which you can see more fully in the link, and what they are saying makes sense to me.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The

Post by Secret Alias »

I am sorry but these ideas are stupid. Most people see the overlap in words and ideas as proof that the text was written after Deuteronomy not that Deuteronomy was written by Jeremiah. I think there is a reason why your ideas aren't held by many people.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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