60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The Era

[rakovsky]

The messianic vision has survived,

Apparently you think it didnt just survive, it was invented by Christians out of whole cloth in 70+ AD and then the rabbis liked the Messiah idea so much they made it mandatory in Judaism.

[neilgodfrey]

[Did they even know a Messiah ben David king concept?

The reason this question is absurd is because it completely bypasses the question of popular beliefs and expectations at a particular time and place in history.

Tod has listed dozens of scholarly works addressing this topic and I have listed and written about many, too. The messiah being a son of David is completely beside the point because there were many different ideas of a messiah descended from David. Your question assumes the phrase could only mean one type of messiah. Further, the question makes no reference to who "they" is -- whom do you mean by "they"? Again, that is something I have addressed before but you have bypassed once again. There are a host of other issues your question implies but evidently escape you with your simplistic black and white doctrinal belief system.

[rakovsky]

How about you address my words and not rewrite them to insinuate motives.

Your words are:

My point is that there is no evidence to support your assumption that Jews generally at any time "believed in a hero to come and rescue them". That's the apologetic myth about Jews and messianism.

You have not given any evidence at all for your claim that Jews generally believed or were preoccupied with a belief that a messiah was to come and rescue them. None.

There is no evidence that the Jewish teachings of the "past 2000 years" were the same as those of the general Jewish population in the Second Temple era -- quite the opposite in fact.

To address your words, one must first understand them.

Your teaching is that Jews never thought "at any time" that a Messiah king Ben David would come to lead them as an independent nation.
Jews have believed this for the past 1500+ years, and you teach that "the opposite" is true. So you teach "the opposite", that Jews before 70 AD have never believed in Messiah King Ben David.

There was a wide array of different messianic concepts throughout the Second Temple era so it is fatuous and beside the point to ask if any particular one existed.

Name a couple ones, please.

Please explain how those 1st century Messiah concepts were "quite the opposite" of Messiah concepts that Jews and Christians believe today.

[neilgodfrey]

The messianic vision has survived,

Apparently you think it didnt just survive, it was invented by Christians out of whole cloth in 70+ AD and then the rabbis liked the Messiah idea so much they made it mandatory in Judaism.

No, I don't think that --- you clearly have not bothered to read many of my comments or posts to which I have directed you where I do answer your questions. So what is your purpose here? It is clear you are out to attack me personally, to distort my words, to impute motives, to make up nonsense insinuations -- and above all to avoid discussing the questions I raise.

[neilgodfrey]

There was a wide array of different messianic concepts throughout the Second Temple era so it is fatuous and beside the point to ask if any particular one existed.

Name a couple ones, please.

Please explain how those 1st century Messiah concepts were "quite the opposite" of what Jews and Christians believe today.

You obviously have not bothered to read any of my comments in previous discussions where I did just this, nor have you bothered to follow up any comments or posts I have directed you to where indeed these questions are answered.

Christians!!

[rakovsky]

It is clear you are out to avoid discussing the questions I raise.

You write:

There is no evidence that the Jewish teachings of the "past 2000 years" were the same as those of the general Jewish population in the Second Temple era -- quite the opposite in fact.

There was a wide array of different messianic concepts throughout the Second Temple era so it is fatuous and beside the point to ask if any particular one existed.

Let's discuss this issue you are raising.

How were the Second Temple concepts of Messiah the "opposite" of Jews' and Christians' 1500+ year concepts of Messiah?

[MrMacSon]

• The messianic vision has survived,

• Apparently you think it didn't just survive, it was invented by Christians out of whole cloth in 70+ AD and then the rabbis liked the Messiah idea so much they made it mandatory in Judaism.

• Neil's full sentence & paragraph was

The messianic vision ha[d] survived, Talmon insinuates, because it is set in an indefinite, far off future time. Occasionally some sect or other gets excited about it being expected here and now, but such sects or expectations die out.

• after having written

[Talmon's point] is that the extra-long span of time is in effect placing the utopian vision into the indefinite future. This is reiterated when Daniel extends the time even more with his 7x70 years of weeks, etc, and then the 1335 days, etc.
.

[neilgodfrey]

It is clear you are out to avoid discussing the questions I raise.

You write:

There is no evidence that the Jewish teachings of the "past 2000 years" were the same as those of the general Jewish population in the Second Temple era -- quite the opposite in fact.

There was a wide array of different messianic concepts throughout the Second Temple era so it is fatuous and beside the point to ask if any particular one existed.

Let's discuss this issue you are raising.

How were the Second Temple concepts of Messiah the "opposite" of Jews' and Christians' 1500+ year concepts of Messiah?

Turn to a question I have actually raised and discuss it. How about the evidence. Psalm of Solomon 17 or the movements mentioned by Josephus. How history really works. But you won't do that.

Tell you what. Make an effort to actually frame a question I have asked -- really asked -- and demonstrate you really do understand what I have asked, what my actual challenge is.

If you can do that- - but I know you won't, of course -- then I can have confidence you actually understand the point I have been trying to raise. We can then discuss it.

[neilgodfrey]

• The messianic vision has survived,

• Apparently you think it didn't just survive, it was invented by Christians out of whole cloth in 70+ AD and then the rabbis liked the Messiah idea so much they made it mandatory in Judaism.

• Neil's full sentence was

The messianic vision ha[d] survived, Talmon insinuates, because it is set in an indefinite, far off future time. Occasionally some sect or other gets excited about it being expected here and now, but such sects or expectations die out.

• after having written

[Talmon's point] is that the extra-long span of time is in effect placing the utopian vision into the indefinite future. This is reiterated when Daniel extends the time even more with his 7x70 years of weeks, etc, and then the 1335 days, etc.
.

rakovsky is not interested in honest discussion. He is too hell bent on fighting to defend his faith from serious challenges.

[rakovsky]

• The messianic vision has survived,

• Apparently you think it didn't just survive, it was invented by Christians out of whole cloth in 70+ AD and then the rabbis liked the Messiah idea so much they made it mandatory in Judaism.

• Neil's full sentence & paragraph was

The messianic vision ha[d] survived, Talmon insinuates, because it is set in an indefinite, far off future time. Occasionally some sect or other gets excited about it being expected here and now, but such sects or expectations die out.

• after having written

[Talmon's point] is that the extra-long span of time is in effect placing the utopian vision into the indefinite future. This is reiterated when Daniel extends the time even more with his 7x70 years of weeks, etc, and then the 1335 days, etc.
.

So is that saying that Jews believed in the Messiah ben David concept of a king over independent Israel already in Daniel's time?