Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

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andrewcriddle
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by andrewcriddle » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:50 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:30 am
andrewcriddle wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:32 am
Severus is probably the author of the homily attributed to Gregory of Nyssa.

See ...reception of Ad Marinum

Andrew Criddle
JW:
Kelhoffer's supposed support is not only Burgon, but specifically Burgon's claims that I already dealt with in the post you were responding to. So you saw the supposed defense and just assumed Kelhoffer had something other than Burgon, yes?

Again, Christian Bible scholarship accepts that the offending homily is attributed to Gregory in multiple relatively old Patristic compilations. Even Burgon confesses this. Burgon exorcises Gregory as even being worthy of evidence mention because Burgon claims that Severus has the same homily "word for word" in his attributed compilation. Gregory is earlier and no one has given any good reason why they could not both have the same Homily as part of their writings.

When presenting the evidence, why not just list Gregory as having the homily and when listing Severus note that he has the same homily? Isn't not listing Gregory dishonest here?

More important question Andrew. Do you think the LE is original?


Joseph

The New Porphyry
The LE is almost certainly not original.

The Homily is probably by Severus, (Severus is unorthodox by Catholic standards and his sermons are sometimes preserved under other names.)

Andrew Criddle

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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:50 am

There is an article here by Kugener (p 435) giving the Syriac and other evidence for attributing the homily to Severus.

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JoeWallack
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BarFest

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:32 pm

JW:

Prologue Epilogue Commentary
1

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight;
4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.
7 And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
16

1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen.
3 And they were saying among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the tomb?
4 and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great.
5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.
1. From a structural standpoint the size of the Epilogue with 16:8 as the ending fits very well as the Prologue and Epilogue both have 8 verses (of course the original had no formal verse division but the total words are pretty similar and the natural verse divisions based on language Markers such as subjects and verbs supports this verse division).

2. Epilogue
An epilogue is the final chapter at the end of a story that often serves to reveal the fates of the characters. Some epilogues may feature scenes only tangentially related to the subject of the story. They can be used to hint at a sequel or wrap up all the loose ends. They can occur at a significant period of time after the main plot has ended. In some cases, the epilogue is used to allow the main character a chance to "speak freely".
An epilogue can continue in the same narrative style and perspective as the preceding story, although the form of an epilogue can occasionally be drastically different from the overall story. It can also be used as a sequel.
It reminds me of a trailer for a sequel that is embedded in the closing credits (so to speak) such as Potfest. Does 16:1-8 include the Trailer for the Sequel:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man[note the double negative for emphasis], but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),
For those who need points sharply explained like iskander, in order for Paul to learn of Jesus' resurrection through revelation he must not have learned it through men.



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JoeWallack
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Choose One From Column A

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:30 pm

JW:
James O Snapp is an Apologist but he does have a pretty, pretty good book out on the subject at hand regarding what the related evidence is (his related conclusions are god-awful):

Authentic: Mark 16:9-20: The Case of the Missing Conclusions

An important part (to them) of the Apologist argument for the LE is the supposed overwhelming Manuscript evidence. This Thread has already demonstrated that the quality Manuscript evidence provides good support for 16:8 as original but it is not normally publicly demonstrated the extent to which the LE lacks quality Manuscript support.

At location 4059 of the Kindle Version, Snapp starts to list the earliest Manuscript support for LE. First on the list is Codex Alexandrinus (CA) c. 450. CA has the following marks on its value as witness for LE: [quotes are from Snapp's book]
  • 1) The Text-type is Byzantine which is the weakest of all the Greek Text-types.

    2)
    ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ (Efobounto gar) ends the 24th line of a column (each column consisting of 50 lines) and Αναστας δε (Anastas de) begins the 25th line
    Anyone seen the actual last page of GMark in CA?

    3)
    the initial A of Αναστας (Anastas) is enlarged, and is accompanied by a paragraphus-mark (resembling a tilted “t”); the same mark appears at the end of 16:8 in B.

    Anyone seen the actual last page of GMark in CA?

    4)
    Codex A contains the Eusebian Canons in an early form; the last Eusebian Canon-entry in the margin is ΣΛΒ/Β (Section 232 of Canon 2) at 16:6. 
    This is consistent with the original Eusebian Canons which did not include the LE. So while CA does include most of the LE it also indicates that earlier evidence did not include it.

    5)
    A short space appears between 16:14 and 16:15, and the “T” in the αυτοις(autois) in 16:15 is enlarged in the margin. 
    This is exactly where The Freer Logion was. Jerome c. 400 and Codex Washingtonianus c. 400 evidence the existence of The Freer Logion. So CA likely shows awareness of even more textual variation in the LE here.

    6)
    In its text of Mark 16:9-20, Codex A has the variant εκ νεκρων (ek nekron), “from the dead,” in 16:14
    Textual variation. Evidence of unoriginality.

    7)
    and does not have the phrase και εν ταις χερσιν (kai en tais chersin), “And in their hands,” in 16:18. 
    Textual variation. Evidence of unoriginality.
In summary, while CA is probably the best Manuscript witness for the LE it has every characteristic of a later Manuscript reading:
  • 1) Late Text-type, post recension.

    2) Evidence of an earlier reading.

    3) Awareness of Textual Variation.

    4) Textual Variation.

    (That it is on the wrong side of The Difficult Reading Principle goes without a Saying).
O Snapp!


Joseph

The New Porphyry

iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:46 pm

iskander wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 3:19 am
rakovsky wrote:I agree with you, Iskander:
iskander wrote:
Yes the gospel of Mark ends in 16 :8.

The ending of Mark is the triumphant resurrection of Jesus.
It says 16 :6
6But he said to them, ‘Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised;
The youth in the tomb is not implied as telling a lie, but as telling the truth.
It intentionally ends on a cliffhanger, I believe.

The prophets' foretelling that Jesus will resurrect and the process of the virgin birth are not narrated in Mark's gospel, just like, symmetrically, the process of Jesus' resurrection apostles' telling that Jesus did resurrect is not narrated.


This chiastic symmetrical form was a major feature in Mark's gospel, as many scholars have noted.
Mark is the Shakespeare of religious literature.
His ending is beautiful and powerful . In Genesis God personally tells mankind that they will die for failing some unimaginative test . No one witnessed these frightful words.
In mark an angel of the Lord tells mankind that death has been abolished .No one witnessed these joyful words. Simple symmetry : the power of the Word.
People expanded on this simple statement in literature. music. paintings...

Much later the church transformed this simple message into a sinister doctrine for the subjugation of people : keeper of the keys !!!.
Sorry about "keeper of the keys",rakovsky . The original end of the Gospel of Mark is beautiful and powerful . My heartfelt apologies to you.

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Re: Choose One From Column A

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:53 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:30 pm
At location 4059 of the Kindle Version, Snapp starts to list the earliest Manuscript support for LE. First on the list is Codex Alexandrinus (CA) c. 450. CA has the following marks on its value as witness for LE: [quotes are from Snapp's book]
  • 1) The Text-type is Byzantine which is the weakest of all the Greek Text-types.

    2)
    ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ (Efobounto gar) ends the 24th line of a column (each column consisting of 50 lines) and Αναστας δε (Anastas de) begins the 25th line
    Anyone seen the actual last page of GMark in CA?
in the middle of the right column

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JoeWallack
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GMark Ending Codex Alexandrinus

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:41 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:53 pm
JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:30 pm
At location 4059 of the Kindle Version, Snapp starts to list the earliest Manuscript support for LE. First on the list is Codex Alexandrinus (CA) c. 450. CA has the following marks on its value as witness for LE: [quotes are from Snapp's book]
  • 1) The Text-type is Byzantine which is the weakest of all the Greek Text-types.

    2)
    ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ (Efobounto gar) ends the 24th line of a column (each column consisting of 50 lines) and Αναστας δε (Anastas de) begins the 25th line
    Anyone seen the actual last page of GMark in CA?
in the middle of the right column
JW:
Thanks KK. Here is the relevant image:

Image


Joseph

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Choose One From Column A

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:36 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:30 pm
Anyone seen the actual last page of GMark in CA?
Alexandrinus is online here: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... iii_fs001r. Not sure how to link to the exact page, but you can select folio 18 recto from the dropdown menu in the top righthand corner of the viewer. Once you get there, this is what you are looking for:

mkalexandrinussample.png
mkalexandrinussample.png (680.1 KiB) Viewed 244 times

You can zoom in a lot in the viewer.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

iskander
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Origina

Post by iskander » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 am

iskander wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 3:26 am
james_C wrote:why would you end a text with the words
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

if the author knew that jesus was waiting near the tomb?

the women are seeking safety in flight.
Mark 16:6-8
The ending of Mark is an elegant ending that brings back to life the conflict it had narrated.
" Mark 16:6 ..Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. "


The rebel has been executed and the followers mourn their leader. But this verse says to them and to the executioners that the conflict is still on: the good news that Jesus proclaimed is alive and hence Jesus is alive and still preaching. This verse was understood then as in the chapter of Ezekiel about the resurrection of dried bones. Mk 16:6 says the fight continues , and these words make the women anxious and say nothing as commanded.


Jesus will speak to the leaders of the reform movement later and stories developing verses 16 : 6-8 will be written and some of them will be attached to the ending of Mark .
It is the continuing struggle what frighten the women ; the execution of Jesus will not persuade his followers to abandon hope.
What say you, james_C.

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JoeWallack
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Canon Baal It

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:38 am

JW:

Image

The circled character which looks like a seven I believe Marks the end of the Eusebian Canon for 16:8. Note there are no more such characters through the end of GMark here (CA's variation of the LE). This is evidence that c. 450 even the Byzantine text-type acknowledged Eusebius and Church tradition for an earlier GMark that ended at 16:8.


Joseph

The New Porphyry

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