FransJVermeiren wrote:maryhelena wrote:
A minor event??
The end of the Hasmonean dynasty, the loss of sovereignty, country occupied by a foreign force - and you would call all that a minor event.....
Daniel Schwartz: ‘I refer to those many who write as if 70 meant the demise of a Jewish state—which is simply not true. The end of the Jewish state had come already in 63 bce, (Was 70 c.e. a Watershed in Jewish History)
Maybe I was a little bit provocative when I called the end of the Hasmonean dynasty a minor event. Was the Franco-Prussian war a minor event? No it wasn't. But compared to the two World War's of the 20th century maybe it was. Do we speak about the wars of 1870-1871, 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 as of equal importance? No we don't, and the same applies for 63 BCE, 37 BCE and 70 CE.
All wars are tragic. The point about referencing 63 b.c.e. and 37 b.c.e. was not only that these years had fundamental consequences for the Jewish state - but that these years are often overshadowed by the events of 70 c.e. The purpose of the articles in
Was 70 c.e. a Watershed in Jewish History was to bring back into focus these earlier years. Concentrating on 70 c.e. at the expense of neglecting earlier Hasmonean history is to short change a search for early christian origins. A study of World War 2 would be negligent if the history of World War 1 was not part of it's research....
It's a bit strange also that you quote Daniel Schwartz to highlight the 37 BCE event, when he mentions the first capture of Jerusalem in 63 BCE. So Schwartz considers Pompey's capture of Jerusalem more important than the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. All in all 37 BCE is a symbolic date in the first place, because real Hasmonean power had vanished long before.
The quote from Schwartz referenced 63 b.c.e. The quote from Sharon referenced 67-37 b.c.e. 37 b.c.e. was the year in which ended the Hasmonean dynasty. i.e. the year in which a Jewish King was executed by Rome.
In his review of Steve Mason's A History of the Jewish War Daniel Schwartz calls the war of the Jews against the Romans 'an axial event of the first century'. And the book description of Mason's book on Amazon.com says 'The first war between Jews and Romans (A.D. 66 to 74), which saw the fall of Jerusalem's temple (A.D. 70), is among the West's most consequential conflicts.'
The importance and consequences of 70 c.e. do not override or cancel out the importance of events of 63 b.c.e. and 37 b.c.e. That is the issue raised in
Was 70 c.e. a Watershed in Jewish History
Finally, in your quote Schwartz only says that the Jewish state came to an end in 63 BCE and not in 70 CE. He does not say that the war against the Romans was a minor event.
And neither did I say the event of 70 c.e. was a minor event...
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Wikipedia: Siege of Jerusalem:
Siege of Jerusalem (63 BC) by Pompey the Great, intervening in the Hasmonean civil war on behalf of the Roman Republic.
Siege of Jerusalem (37 BC) by Herod the Great, ending Hasmonean rule over Judea.
Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70) by Titus, ending the major phase of the Great Jewish Revolt. It ended in the destruction of Herod's Temple.
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Herod's siege of Jerusalem in 37 b.c.e.
Indeed, though they had so great an army lying round about them, they bore a siege of five months, till some of Herod's chosen men ventured to get upon the wall, and fell into the city, as did Sosius's centurions after them; and now they first of all seized upon what was about the temple; and upon the pouring in of the army, there was slaughter of vast multitudes every where, by reason of the rage the Romans were in at the length of this siege, and by reason that the Jews who were about Herod earnestly endeavored that none of their adversaries might remain; so they were cut to pieces by great multitudes, as they were crowded together in narrow streets, and in houses, or were running away to the temple; nor was there any mercy showed either to infants, or to the aged, or to the weaker sex; insomuch that although the king sent about and desired them to spare the people, nobody could be persuaded to withhold their right hand from slaughter, but they slew people of all ages, like madmen.
War of the Jews Book 1 ch.18.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D349
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats