A god whose rule had been transferred

[Giuseppe]

I have read the following suggestive comment:

And there's much to provoke thought there in his view of Josephus' influence. I find something intriguing, for instance, about Josephus' notion of the "victory" of a god whose rule had been transferred from the Temple in Jerusalem beyond Judea. This god could now extend his influence and effect his glory onto the whole world. This raises the question: Is there any precedent for this kind of Jewish radical universalism, or was Josephus its pioneer?
Did he invent this expression?
If so, he unilaterally and intentionally diverged from all the normative Judaisms of the time,3 all in the interest of pleasing his new master (or in the interest of survival, which in this case was one and the same thing). The question remains, though, did this kind of departure from Judaism that Josephus evinces here influence early Christianity?

(my bold)
http://mythicismfiles.blogspot.it/2017/ ... auers.html

I have read Josephus but I don't know where he talks about

the "victory" of a god whose rule had been transferred from the Temple in Jerusalem beyond Judea. This god could now extend his influence and effect his glory onto the whole world.

Can you say where it would be precisely in Josephus this interesting view?

[Giuseppe]

I am curious also because this would may explain why the Golgotha may simbolize the Capitolium Hill in Rome. The place where the Lord of the Glory wins his enemies is precisely the place where the god of the Jews ''could now extend his influence and effect his glory onto the whole world''.

[lsayre]

It is speculated that Josephus applied the Star Prophecy to Vespasian.

[Giuseppe]

It is speculated that Josephus applied the Star Prophecy to Vespasian.

If it is only that passage, then it says that God was behind (the destruction of the temple by) Vespasian so that he (god) could rule now from Rome itself and not more from Jerusalem. Read in these terms, it seems very the description of the universal triumph of the god of the Jews, and not of a defeat of a tribal god.

[GakuseiDon]

Can you say where it would be precisely in Josephus this interesting view?

It may be a reading derived from the theme in Josephus's Book 6 of "The Jewish War":

1. God abandons the Jews and then evacuates the Temple
2. God takes the sides of the Romans

• Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost; [hi=]as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple[/hi],10 as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise: and after that they heard a sound, as of a multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”...
  
  Now when Titus was come into this [upper] city, he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants, in their mad conduct, had relinquished. For when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones, and the exactness of their joints; as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself after the manner following: “We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war: and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications. For what could the hands of men, or any machines, do towards overthrowing these towers?”

[Giuseppe]

So Bruno Bauer:

The exit of the Gods moved through the northern city gate which loocked out in the direction of the enemy camp. Josephus informed us of the same exit of the national God of the Jews from his sanctuary and told the final defenders of Jerusalem that their God had gone over to the Romans and now lived in Italy. The Gods, such as Jehovah as well as Isis, became wanderers and sought salvation with the victors.

I think that the episode, reported by Josephus and by Tacitus too (even if the latter is based on the former) reveals that even the Romans realized that 'something'' was happened after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. It is curious that Tacitus talked about the pagan 'gods' escaping from the Temple, differently from Josephus who talks only about the exit of the God of the Jews.

It seems that for Tacitus the Temple was, until to the moment of the his destruction, a kind of prison where the Jews believed that the Pagan Gods were held (slaves or allies?) with their God.

[GakuseiDon]

So Bruno Bauer:

The exit of the Gods moved through the northern city gate which loocked out in the direction of the enemy camp. Josephus informed us of the same exit of the national God of the Jews from his sanctuary and told the final defenders of Jerusalem that their God had gone over to the Romans and now lived in Italy. The Gods, such as Jehovah as well as Isis, became wanderers and sought salvation with the victors.

Interesting. Do you have a source for the Bauer quote?

I think that the episode, reported by Josephus and by Tacitus too (even if the latter is based on the former) reveals that even the Romans realized that 'something'' was happened after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. It is curious that Tacitus talked about the pagan 'gods' escaping from the Temple, differently from Josephus who talks only about the exit of the God of the Jews.

I don't get that impression. Here is what Tacitus writes: https://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartbo ... chap18.htm

• A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this mighty destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth.

I've always taken that to mean that Tacitus is referring to the Hebrew gods. I'm not aware that anyone thought that the pagan gods were held captive in the Temple. I'd love to know if there is evidence for that though.

It seems that for Tacitus the Temple was, until to the moment of the his destruction, a kind of prison where the Jews believed that the Pagan Gods were held (slaves or allies?) with their God.

I can't see that in Tacitus.

[Giuseppe]

Interesting. Do you have a source for the Bauer quote?

I have quoted from here:
https://books.google.it/books?id=mOl7Bw ... rs&f=false

I've always taken that to mean that Tacitus is referring to the Hebrew gods. I'm not aware that anyone thought that the pagan gods were held captive in the Temple. I'd love to know if there is evidence for that though.

I have derived that view precisely from the your quote of Tacitus:

• A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this mighty destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth.

Note the deliberate contrast: ''few people' - evidently among the Jews - saw negatively the ''fact'' that the Pagan Gods abandoned the Temple, while the majority of the Jews were still optimistic about the future of the conflict. The Jews were strictly monotheistic and Tacitus knew it, therefore the more simple explanation is that, according to Tacitus, the Jews believed that the Pagan Gods were slaves of their Unique God insofar they couldn't abandon the Temple before that moment.
Obviously that was not the view of Josephus, who reported that it was God or his angels to abandon the temple, but we are interested in Tacitus' view, here.

I can't see that in Tacitus.

It is easy to infer that from Tacitus, given the following premises:

1) Tacitus says that the Jews were monotheistic people.
2) Tacitus says that the Jews saw the Pagan Gods abandon the temple en masse.
3) Tacitus says that the ''fact'' was seen negatively by some Jews.
4) therefore, if the Pagan Gods didn't abandon the Temple, then that ''fact'' would be seen positively by the same Jews and read obviously in an anti-Roman function.
5) question: how can a Jew see positively the fact that the Pagan Gods can't abandon the Temple?
Best Answer: by seeing the Pagan Gods as slaves of the God of the Jews until that moment.

[GakuseiDon]

I have quoted from here:
https://books.google.it/books?id=mOl7Bw ... rs&f=false

Thanks Giuseppe. The parallel that Bauer draws with the gods abandoning Antony in Plutarch's "Life of Antony" -- in much the same way that Josephus records events that happened at the Temple -- is interesting.