Proofs That Jesus Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Chris Hansen
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:04 am

(2) This assumes that Iscariot is a "title" and not a placename, i.e. an identifier of where he came from. If so, this would explain the lack of care about what the term means. This idea is not universal, but has gained some acceptance. As such, the argument for historicity based on this is shaky.

(3) I doubt this. It is odd that Jesus' betrayal in Paul would make no mention of the betrayer. I am personally inclined to view Judas Iscariot as quite possibly an invented figure (though I think Jesus was historical). It is worth noting the parallel between a group of thirteen men, where one of them is betrayed by a man named Judas (Judah), which oddly parallels that of the tale of Joseph in Genesis.

(4) Agreed, though this does depend how one interprets this. If one wants to play along with Carrier's (completely ad hoc) explanations, this betrayal would have happened in a celestial realm. I think this is unsustainable myself, but one should at least make proper account and rebuttal.

(5) For 2-3 I think there are reasons to find this deductive conclusion problematic.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:06 am

(4) If Jesus was betrayed by someone, anyone, even Bueller, than Jesus existed.
This is question-begging. To hypothesize that Jesus was betrayed is to begin with the assumption that he existed.
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Chris Hansen
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:50 am

Yeah. There is honestly a lot of stuff wrong with the argumentation. I'm just wholly unconvinced that the Gospels can be used as sources to validate anything specific about Jesus' life, just because of our epistemic limitations in all our methods. While I'm convinced they have history in them, I don't think we can parse through it.

So the whole argument from Judas' betrayal becomes absolutely unsustainable, because we can't validate the narrative.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Peter Kirby » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:59 am

Chris Hansen wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:50 am
Yeah. There is honestly a lot of stuff wrong with the argumentation.
Take a look starting at the first page of this thread. It began with parody of arguments frequently made. Most aren't serious.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

Chris Hansen
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Chris Hansen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:08 am

Ooooooh, that explains a lot.

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JoeWallack
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ARGUMENT FROM FAILED SATIRE

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:49 am

ARGUMENT FROM FAILED SATIRE

1. Newcomers to this Thread often fail to recognize that the "arguments" are satire of real arguments that claim to prove Jesus existed.

2. Newcomers fail to recognize the satire because the satire sounds just like the real arguments.

3. Therefore, Jesus existed.

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