Proofs That Jesus Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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arnoldo
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by arnoldo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:43 am

1. If Jesus did not exist intelligent people would not endlessly question his existence.
2. Intelligent people endlessly question his existence.
3. Therefore Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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Argument From Ignorance of Sources

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:04 am

ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE OF SOURCES

(1) Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus from the gospels We do not know who wrote the Gospels.
(2) The first users of the gospels did not care who wrote the gospels.
(3) "This, however, does not in any way devalue the importance of the gospels as historical sources."
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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Argument From All Early Christians Agreeing

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:55 pm

ARGUMENT FROM ALL EARLY CHRISTIANS AGREEING

Was Jesus a Historical Figure?
The point here is that if Christians had invented Jesus from whole cloth, they would never have said that he came from Nazareth; they would have said that he came from Bethlehem from the very start and that that was where he grew up. The only reason why they did not do this was because Jesus was a real person and everyone knew he had come from Nazareth.
(1) All early Christians agree that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(2) We do not know who these early Christians were.
(3) (2) does not matter because all early Christians agree that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(4) We do not know where these early Christians were.
(5) (4) does not matter because all early Christians agree that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(6) All early Christians agreed that Jesus came from Nazareth because all early Christians knew that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(7) All early Patristics agree that Nazareth was in Judea but whether it was in Galilee or Judea does not matter because all early Christians knew that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(8) Subsequent Gospels, which are our earliest Christian evidence of where Jesus came from, next to GMark, say Jesus did not originate from Nazareth.
(9) (8) is evidence that Jesus did come from Nazareth.
(10) What exactly does "came from" even mean?
(11) (10) does not matter because all early Christians knew that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(12) Jesus came from Nazareth because all early Christians agree that Jesus came from Nazareth.
(13) Therefore, Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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Argument From Self-Appointing Expert In Order To Discredit Self-Appointing Experts

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:49 am

ARGUMENT FROM SELF-APPOINTING EXPERT IN ORDER TO DISCREDIT SELF-APPOINTING EXPERTS

Was Jesus a Historical Figure?
NOTE: I originally published this article on March 10, 2018, at which time I was still a senior in high school. Since then, this article has come under extremely heavy criticism. I could probably write this article better if I were writing it today, but I will leave this article as it is as a record of what I originally wrote.

No other figure has attracted nearly as much controversy as Jesus of Nazareth… but was he a historical figure? Well, people on the internet seem to say otherwise: these self-appointed debunkers (who are almost exclusively historically illiterate bloggers with no background in ancient history, or any history for that matter) have taken it upon themselves to demonstrate that Jesus is just a fictional character invented out of whole cloth by early Christians.
(1) Spencer Alexander McDaniel, who at the time had no credentials (not even a High School diploma), self-appoints himself an expert in identifying and discrediting self-appointed experts who claim Jesus did not exist.
(2) McDaniel, a self-appointed expert, discredits these unknown self-appointed experts.
(3) Since McDaniel has discredited these unknown self-appointed experts who McDaniel claims claim Jesus did not exist, the opposite of their claims must be true.
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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Argument From Ehrman Figure of Speech

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:33 pm

ARGUMENT FROM EHRMAN FIGURE OF SPEECH

Was Jesus a Historical Figure?
In any case, the fact that Paul knew Jesus’s own brother is the strongest (though certainly not the only) piece of evidence to support the fact that Jesus was a historical figure. As historian of early Christianity Bart Ehrman (an agnostic) remarks:

And so Jesus’ brothers were his actual brothers. Paul knows one of these brothers personally. It is hard to get much closer to the historical Jesus than that. If Jesus never lived, you would think that his brother would know about it.
(1) The best evidence of historical Jesus would be first hand evidence (Jesus as source).
(2) The next best evidence would be second hand evidence (an identified source indicating they knew Jesus).
(3) We actually have lots of of copied claimed first and second hand witness that everyone agrees is forged.
(4) We do have a few higher hand copied Ad Nazorean hand witness that some think is genuine.
(5) Ignore (3).
(6) Paul never says that someone he knew says they knew Jesus.
(7) Paul says that a James he knows is "The Brother of the Lord" which does sound like he means Jesus' brother in a family sense as opposed to James saying he was the brother of Jesus.
(8) Bart Ehrman is cited using an expression meaning that this is one of the best evidences that Jesus existed.
(9) Therefore, Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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Argument From Shlomo Sand Scholarship

Post by JoeWallack » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:44 am

ARGUMENT FROM SCHLOMO SAND SCHOLARSHIP

(1) Schlomo Sand is Israeli + Historian = everything he says about historical Jews must be true.
(2) Sand thinks that all modern Jews are converts going back to Khazaria. (The Chazehrye Argument).
(3) Sand thinks there was mass conversion to Judaism in Israel shortly before Jesus.
(4) Since some people must have always been in Israel since Jesus but no Jews have always been in Israel since Jesus,
people who are non Jews in Israel must be related to Jesus.
(5) Therefore, Jesus existed.

"I don't always argue HJ. But when I do I prefer DosSheikaas."
Last edited by JoeWallack on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:17 pm

Way to go, Joe. Pure blood (actually blue blood -- star of David shade of blue, to be precise) tribalism, the biologically pure race, not like those dirty Arab cockroach scum. ;-)
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science

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Irish1975
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Re: Argument From Shlomo Sand Scholarship

Post by Irish1975 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:39 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:44 am
ARGUMENT FROM SCHLOMO SAND SCHOLARSHIP

(1) Schlomo Sand is Israeli + Historian = everything he says about historical Jews must be true.
Argument against S.S. Scholarship--

1) S.S. is an Israeli.
2) Israelis often wrong.
3) S.S. is an historian.
4) Historians often wrong.
5) Therefore Historical Jews are Historical Jews.

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JoeWallack
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ARGUMENT FROM JUDAS BETRAYAL

Post by JoeWallack » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:22 pm

ARGUMENT FROM JUDAS BETRAYAL

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-quest-for-th ... -iscariot/

(1) It is a historical fact that Judas Iscariot was Judas Iscariot.

(2) It is a historical fact that Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' twelve disciples.

(3) It is a historical fact that Judas Iscariot "betrayed" Jesus [scare quotes provided by Ehrman].

(4) Judas Iscariot could have only "betrayed" Jesus if Jesus existed.

(5) Therefore Jesus existed.

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JoeWallack
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ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE

Post by JoeWallack » Sat May 30, 2020 8:33 am


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