The Gospels as Midrash
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The Gospels as Midrash
Hello everyone --
In the last few days, I made connections with someone who Studies These Things. I sent an E-Mail attempting to explain some aspects of what I had found. I was quoting our beloved Poster Jay Raskin and his book, among other items, and my typing ran ahead of my thought. I made a hash of positions and clear thought. I made a Category Error of the type I usually criticize. A Mess.
I looked at the Internet to see if someone had Posted something with a bit more Clarity than I had demonstrated. I found this:
http://www.theologicalperspectives.com/ ... rucifixion
It's Apologetix, though of a rather mild variety, apparently honest in its intentions. It has the usual gruesome, horrific Crucifixion painting to accompany the article but I could scroll past that. It is very illuminating. But First!:
Jewish Encyclopedia, "Bilgah":
"The priests, when entering upon their duties, received their share in the northern part of the Tabernacle, because this was near the seat of their activity. The section assigned to each division of the priesthood was furnished with an iron ring fastened to the floor, for the purpose of securing the animal designed for slaughter, and there were accordingly twenty-four openings in the wall where the knives used for slaughtering were kept. Bilgah alone received his share in the south, his ring being nailed down, and his wall-closet tightly sealed, as a punishment...
"According to another opinion, the priests of Bilgah delayed too long in entering upon the performance of their functions; so that those of the division Jeshebeab were compelled to act in their place, and consequently received the prerogatives of Bilgah (Tos., l.c.; Yer. Suk., end)..."
For those who don't need reminding, I believe that many of the NT Stories come from either a Real History or an astonishingly good piece of Fiction built around the Mishmarot Priesthood and a Failed Coup at the death of Herod at Passover of 4 BCE. A Priest is saved by Peter and they return to attempt to finish the Job 12 years later where the Priest is Crucified - and maybe Peter as well. The End. Very Dark stuff.
So, I was reading this piece and came across the following:
"The synoptic Gospel writers all appear to equate the Passover with the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Luke actually calls the Feast of Unleavened Bread the Passover. The Hebrew Scriptures make it clear that the Passover is on the 14th day of the Hebrew first month and the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th of the first month.
"Leviticus 23: 5-6: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast..."
"Huh?!?? Wha...?" This is precisely the Type of Category Error that leads people astray. I fell for it as well. Apologetix demands that all of this gets Unified with John so that there are no Contradictions. The first Smoothing usually comes from a demand that this be seen as "Oral History", which proves nothing. Then there's the next and the next. You know the rest...
What if (as I contend) there are indeed 2 Stories between the Synoptics and John? 2 Stories that the Romans skillfully telescoped into one? The very opaque Foot Washing in John 13 is at least partly explainable as an obsession developed from the scene where Peter comes out into the Death and realizes that he is knee deep in blood and gore, the Priest as well. This points to the return 12 years after 4 BCE. Jairus tells the Priest that his daughter is dying. She is 12 years old. See also the "Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood".
If the Synoptics are telling us of a Separate Story from John and the words mean what they say as to the late arrival in Jerusalem, what is the Story about? It is about a Mishmarot Group that arrives a day late for a God Commanded appearance - as described of Bilgah. This would be a Midrash then, among the first of this Type. This will demand another Iteration of Mapping the Stories but I'm retired and have some time next week.
Y/N/M?
CW
In the last few days, I made connections with someone who Studies These Things. I sent an E-Mail attempting to explain some aspects of what I had found. I was quoting our beloved Poster Jay Raskin and his book, among other items, and my typing ran ahead of my thought. I made a hash of positions and clear thought. I made a Category Error of the type I usually criticize. A Mess.
I looked at the Internet to see if someone had Posted something with a bit more Clarity than I had demonstrated. I found this:
http://www.theologicalperspectives.com/ ... rucifixion
It's Apologetix, though of a rather mild variety, apparently honest in its intentions. It has the usual gruesome, horrific Crucifixion painting to accompany the article but I could scroll past that. It is very illuminating. But First!:
Jewish Encyclopedia, "Bilgah":
"The priests, when entering upon their duties, received their share in the northern part of the Tabernacle, because this was near the seat of their activity. The section assigned to each division of the priesthood was furnished with an iron ring fastened to the floor, for the purpose of securing the animal designed for slaughter, and there were accordingly twenty-four openings in the wall where the knives used for slaughtering were kept. Bilgah alone received his share in the south, his ring being nailed down, and his wall-closet tightly sealed, as a punishment...
"According to another opinion, the priests of Bilgah delayed too long in entering upon the performance of their functions; so that those of the division Jeshebeab were compelled to act in their place, and consequently received the prerogatives of Bilgah (Tos., l.c.; Yer. Suk., end)..."
For those who don't need reminding, I believe that many of the NT Stories come from either a Real History or an astonishingly good piece of Fiction built around the Mishmarot Priesthood and a Failed Coup at the death of Herod at Passover of 4 BCE. A Priest is saved by Peter and they return to attempt to finish the Job 12 years later where the Priest is Crucified - and maybe Peter as well. The End. Very Dark stuff.
So, I was reading this piece and came across the following:
"The synoptic Gospel writers all appear to equate the Passover with the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Luke actually calls the Feast of Unleavened Bread the Passover. The Hebrew Scriptures make it clear that the Passover is on the 14th day of the Hebrew first month and the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th of the first month.
"Leviticus 23: 5-6: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast..."
"Huh?!?? Wha...?" This is precisely the Type of Category Error that leads people astray. I fell for it as well. Apologetix demands that all of this gets Unified with John so that there are no Contradictions. The first Smoothing usually comes from a demand that this be seen as "Oral History", which proves nothing. Then there's the next and the next. You know the rest...
What if (as I contend) there are indeed 2 Stories between the Synoptics and John? 2 Stories that the Romans skillfully telescoped into one? The very opaque Foot Washing in John 13 is at least partly explainable as an obsession developed from the scene where Peter comes out into the Death and realizes that he is knee deep in blood and gore, the Priest as well. This points to the return 12 years after 4 BCE. Jairus tells the Priest that his daughter is dying. She is 12 years old. See also the "Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood".
If the Synoptics are telling us of a Separate Story from John and the words mean what they say as to the late arrival in Jerusalem, what is the Story about? It is about a Mishmarot Group that arrives a day late for a God Commanded appearance - as described of Bilgah. This would be a Midrash then, among the first of this Type. This will demand another Iteration of Mapping the Stories but I'm retired and have some time next week.
Y/N/M?
CW
Re: The Gospels as Midrash
I see nothing that would sway my thought from the obvious.
Jesus took over Johns movement and was crucified at Passover.
These authors oversold the context they wanted with underlying reasons. Mark for example sells Jesus as so divine that no humans can understand his wisdom, why?
why is to combat perceived heretical views, so when followers here them, they can pass off heretical views as people who never understood the man.
Point? Your over reaching for a context they never tried to sell.
Mishmarot Group and Bilgah connection is unsubstantiated and any connection you may see, needs to be explained much better. I cant see any of it, and at this point I see a square peg in a round hole.
Jesus took over Johns movement and was crucified at Passover.
These authors oversold the context they wanted with underlying reasons. Mark for example sells Jesus as so divine that no humans can understand his wisdom, why?
why is to combat perceived heretical views, so when followers here them, they can pass off heretical views as people who never understood the man.
Point? Your over reaching for a context they never tried to sell.
Mishmarot Group and Bilgah connection is unsubstantiated and any connection you may see, needs to be explained much better. I cant see any of it, and at this point I see a square peg in a round hole.
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
All in all, I think I got off fairly easy. Thanx for your kindness, outhouse.
CW
'N Hezir took over from "Jesus" (Immer) the next week since Hezir folllows Immer which followed Bilgah. etc., etc, etc...outhouse wrote:Jesus took over Johns movement and was crucified at Passover.
Hasmoneans, Flavians, Julio-Claudians, Threats to Rome, Blah, Blah... All True and yet you are on to something. Christianity represented a MASSIVE change in the Cultures of the Med. Basin. "alea iacta est" from another context.These authors oversold the context they wanted with underlying reasons. Mark for example sells Jesus as so divine that no humans can understand his wisdom, why?
Hence, the massive amounts of verbiage from the early "Church Fathers" (sic). Take a Valentinian offering, consider it trash and relabel it as past and heretical. I sometimes wonder if Matthew and Luke were serial replacements in the order of composition so that the New Religion might have only a one volume history. The other versions leaked out...why is to combat perceived heretical views, so when followers here them, they can pass off heretical views as people who never understood the man.
Almost correct. I believe that that there was a Context that "They" tried to HIDE. I may be overeaching but not by much. You have your Hellenistic Judaism and I think you overeach at times but not by much. We both know of the developments in Galilee, especially the Settlements there. You can trace the Greekies, I can trace the Hasmoneans, et. al. WE both examine similar aspects of the same problem.Point? Your over reaching for a context they never tried to sell.
I believe that the Mishmarot sections are SCREAMING at people. There's just too much there FOR ME to ignore. I've tried for 12+ years to explain this. I'll try some more.Mishmarot Group and Bilgah connection is unsubstantiated and any connection you may see, needs to be explained much better.
Thanx for that, outhouse.I cant see any of it, and at this point I see a square peg in a round hole.
CW
Re: The Gospels as Midrash
Midrash may have an element of Haggadah (Hebr.)/Aggadah (Aramaic)
Connotation of Haggadah.
"...The word "haggadah" (Aramaic, "agada") ... in a narrower sense.. denotes the exegetic amplification of a Biblical passage and the development of a new thought based thereupon." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... h-haggadah
"Aggadah is a compendium of rabbinic texts that incorporates folklore, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and practical advice in various spheres, from business to medicine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah
Connotation of Haggadah.
"...The word "haggadah" (Aramaic, "agada") ... in a narrower sense.. denotes the exegetic amplification of a Biblical passage and the development of a new thought based thereupon." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... h-haggadah
"Aggadah is a compendium of rabbinic texts that incorporates folklore, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and practical advice in various spheres, from business to medicine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah
- "The first traces of the midrashic exegesis are found in the Bible itself; while in the time of the Soferim the development of the Midrash Aggadah received a mighty impetus, and the foundations were laid for public services which were soon to offer the chief medium for the cultivation of Bible exegesis.
"Much Aggadah, often mixed with foreign elements, is found in the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, the works of Josephus and Philo, and the remaining Judæo-Hellenistic literature; but aggadic exegesis reached its highest development in the great epoch of the Mishnaic-Talmudic period, between 100 and 550 CE."
Re: The Gospels as Midrash
Trying to see it bud, I want to try and follow just to see where it goes.Charles Wilson wrote:. Thanx for your kindness, outhouse.
.
CW
Christianity represented a MASSIVE change in the Cultures of the Med. Basin. "alea iacta est" from another context.
It is not complicated.
It factually was the Hellenistic divorce of Judaism by people who found value in monotheism and the text of Judaism by way of the sacrificed "son of god".
The change was monotheism and its effects more then just the Med. Basin.
Herods temple the key to spreading monotheism in the Diaspora began before jesus theology hit it.
Groups that found value in Marks version are responsible. We know with complete certainty there were many versions that differed in Christology, but nothing exist that supports the historical foundation currently in place.I sometimes wonder if Matthew and Luke were serial replacements in the order of composition so that the New Religion might have only a one volume history.
Socioeconomic divideWe both know of the developments in Galilee, especially the Settlements there.
I dont think you could begin yo support that.You have your Hellenistic Judaism and I think you overeach at times but not by much
We have only Hellenistic text based on Judaism, so I possess fact, not anything overreaching.
The evidence supports 100% in full Hellenism divorcing Judaism in the Diaspora.WE both examine similar aspects of the same problem.
Problem is this OT Mishmarot fiction based on Moses a fictional character, over exaggerating the rotating temple sects. I believe there is a historical core under the OT mythology about the rotations. BUT you need to focus ONLY on second temple evidence for this Bilgah and rotation.I believe that the Mishmarot sections are SCREAMING at people. There's just too much there FOR ME to ignore. I've tried for 12+ years to explain this. I'll try some more.
Just trying to get you to polish it more so I can understand the connection you see.Thanx for that, outhouse.
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
This is to outhouse and anyone else who wonders about that strange Theory that Charlie claims to see. I was about to take a break from the Site since I thought I was repeating myself too much. Mebbe I should restate the Thesis every now and then. BTW, it's possible to disagree with everything I state. S'OK wid me. I want to start at a beginning. It might not be THE beginning but it might organize things.
1. Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, ISBN-13 978-1-5661-9623-9, p. 108:
"In all their timekeeping, the authors of the Qumran calendars reckoned not only by months, but also by the rotation of the priestly courses (mishmarot). The courses would come into Jerusalem for service in the temple for one week, then rotate out as the next group arrived to serve. Qumran texts relied upon this 'eternal cycle' not only for their calendar units, but also for their chronography and historiography...Every sabbath, month, year and feast bore the name of a priestly family.
"The priestly rotation required six years before the same group would be serving once again in the same week of the year. The sexennial cycle reflects the need to synchronize the solar calendar with the lunisolar version. Since the solar calendar totalled 364 days to the year, while the lunisolar calendar alternated months of 29 and 30 days, the lunisolar calendar would 'fall behind' by 10 days per year. After 3 years, however, the lunisolar calendar was intercalated with an additional 29 or 39 days, bringing the two versions once again into harmony (364 X 3 = 354 X 3 + 30). Two such cycles fit perfectly with the six years needed for one complete priestly cycle..."
The first sentence of the second paragraph is extremely important: "The priestly rotation required six years before the same group would be serving once again in the same week of the year."
Mishmarot: 1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 4, 7, 14 (RSV):
[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
...
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer
There may be a little mischief here but the first Course is Jehoiarib - The Dynastic Hasmoneans are assigned to Jehoiarib. The NT always has the Hasmoneans in the background. Herod's last "speech" is against the Hasmoneans, arguing that he accomplished more is his reign than the Hasmoneans did in 125 years. Also Note: The Mishmarot Group Immer believes that the Hasmoneans came from them (Elizur, Leibner).
One. Last. Fact.: With this information, we can calculate which Mishmarot Group will be on Duty for any week PROVIDED we have an Anchor Date that furnishes a definite time that a Group was on Duty. (24 Mishmarot Groups) X (one week) = 24 X 7 = 168 days. Do we have an Anchor Date? Yes. Jehoiarib is on Duty for the Destruction of the Temple (Legend has it that Jehoiarib was on Duty for BOTH Destructions of the Temple): 9th or 10th of Ab, 70 AD (to mix calendars).
With this, you have a rough 'n ready idea of what is to come. We march to Jerusalem for a particular Passover. 3000+ people are murdered. We know who is supposed to be on Duty. Passover is cancelled. The Nation is Unclean. It will be Unclean for 12 years - That is, 2 Mishmarot Cycles.
End of Part 1.
CW
1. Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, ISBN-13 978-1-5661-9623-9, p. 108:
"In all their timekeeping, the authors of the Qumran calendars reckoned not only by months, but also by the rotation of the priestly courses (mishmarot). The courses would come into Jerusalem for service in the temple for one week, then rotate out as the next group arrived to serve. Qumran texts relied upon this 'eternal cycle' not only for their calendar units, but also for their chronography and historiography...Every sabbath, month, year and feast bore the name of a priestly family.
"The priestly rotation required six years before the same group would be serving once again in the same week of the year. The sexennial cycle reflects the need to synchronize the solar calendar with the lunisolar version. Since the solar calendar totalled 364 days to the year, while the lunisolar calendar alternated months of 29 and 30 days, the lunisolar calendar would 'fall behind' by 10 days per year. After 3 years, however, the lunisolar calendar was intercalated with an additional 29 or 39 days, bringing the two versions once again into harmony (364 X 3 = 354 X 3 + 30). Two such cycles fit perfectly with the six years needed for one complete priestly cycle..."
The first sentence of the second paragraph is extremely important: "The priestly rotation required six years before the same group would be serving once again in the same week of the year."
Mishmarot: 1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 4, 7, 14 (RSV):
[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
...
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer
There may be a little mischief here but the first Course is Jehoiarib - The Dynastic Hasmoneans are assigned to Jehoiarib. The NT always has the Hasmoneans in the background. Herod's last "speech" is against the Hasmoneans, arguing that he accomplished more is his reign than the Hasmoneans did in 125 years. Also Note: The Mishmarot Group Immer believes that the Hasmoneans came from them (Elizur, Leibner).
One. Last. Fact.: With this information, we can calculate which Mishmarot Group will be on Duty for any week PROVIDED we have an Anchor Date that furnishes a definite time that a Group was on Duty. (24 Mishmarot Groups) X (one week) = 24 X 7 = 168 days. Do we have an Anchor Date? Yes. Jehoiarib is on Duty for the Destruction of the Temple (Legend has it that Jehoiarib was on Duty for BOTH Destructions of the Temple): 9th or 10th of Ab, 70 AD (to mix calendars).
With this, you have a rough 'n ready idea of what is to come. We march to Jerusalem for a particular Passover. 3000+ people are murdered. We know who is supposed to be on Duty. Passover is cancelled. The Nation is Unclean. It will be Unclean for 12 years - That is, 2 Mishmarot Cycles.
End of Part 1.
CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
Part 2:
Isaac Newton's day job evidently consisted of Interpreting Scripture. He did alright in a coupla' other areas but as a Theologian, he left a lot to be desired. Interpreting Symbols is an iffy thing: See "General Ripper" in "Dr. Strangelove": "I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly...". Truly one of the greatest scenes in all of movie making.
We appear to have (VERY generally speaking) 2 views in the NT. The Pauline view is of a "Christ" who is waiting for you, details of this Christ not needed. Then, there are the Gospels. The Gospels provide the stories of a savior/god whose Disciples never really caught on as to the Nature of their Leader. Make no mistake here. The Gospels are NOT NEEDED for the completion of Salvation. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Compare that with, "If you would enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS". Who said that? That would be "Jesus".
We now have a choice to make. Either the Gospels were created out of whole cloth - with perhaps a little history to keep things interesting - or we look to find if there was some other Set of Events that were rewritten as the story of this savior/god. This may lead to the conclusion that the character "Jesus" was a created character who did not exist. So be it.
I assert that the Texts that were used to create the Gospels, especially the "Miracle Stories", were taken from the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE as chronicled by Josephus (Apparently written originally by a very important person of Historical Importance, one Nicholas of Damascus). You can find the "External Description" of this Atrocity in Antiquities..., Book 17, Chapter 9, Section 3+ and War..., Book 2, Chapter 1, Section 3+. There are many Herod stories in the NT, not always apparent, and other Sources, especially Tacitus and Suetonius. A good candidate for the Eucharist is found in Dio, Epitome 64.
The Story is that there is a child, Peter, who saves a Priest who is caught stranded between the Temple and Antonia when Archelaus supposedly unleashes the soldiers onto the populace, killing 3000+:
Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):
[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
Then there is the follow-up. Two Mishmarot cycles later, a "President of the Synagogue", Jairus, asks a Priest to try one last time to obtain the Hand of God to eliminate the Romans.
Mark 5:
[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
[24] And he went with him. And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him.
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"
[31] And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?'"
...
[35] While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?"
[36] But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe."
...
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
...
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
If you are a believer, there is nothing at all to discuss. If you not a believer but view this as a report on what certain groups of people from 2000 years ago "actually believed" there is not much to argue.
If you can look at this as a Set of POLITICAL STORIES, then you may be able to look at what I see. AGAIN, if the Symbolism makes no sense to you, there is nothing I can say. If, however, someone such as outhouse can at least see and interpret what I see as Symbolic, then an entirely new System will open up. The authors are not Roman or Herodian or from the corrupt High Priesthood. They are from the only Group that could act against these people. They are from the Mishmarot Priesthood.
It is important to see how much of this is "looking back" at the 4 BCE Temple Atrocity from a vantage point 12 years later. There are Time Markers that give dates for Queen Salome, Antigonus, "The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years" and others. If you can consider that the "Realm of Heaven" is a Real, Physical Place then other Stories begin to make sense: "Are there only a few who are saved? Enter through the narrow door..." [The door is so narrow that] "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. ." This from the Story that was stolen and rewritten.
Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):
[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."
I believe that this is from the floor of the Temple before the soldiers kill the 3000. Reread the sections in War, 2, 1, 3 with the Intentionality of someone holding a stone underneath the nose of one of the soldiers and then read the Lukan Passage again with the same feeling:
"[Archelaus] gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them..."
To bring this together: What Group was on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE and the Passover of 9 CE? Immer, the 16th Group of the House of Eleazar. We can show this mathematically. Is there any other item that might help us see why the Stories were taken from this event?
" אמּר ". Strong's H563, without diacriticals. "Immar" <=> "Lamb". OH! I almost forgot! It also means "Immer".
Revelation 5: 6 (RSV, in part):
[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain
Curious phrasing, isn't it?
You don't have to accept this and all the (very considerable) rest of the evidence. If, however, you wish to get started, look at the Gospel Stories and see if they fit the Pattern.
Any questions. Any time.
CW
Isaac Newton's day job evidently consisted of Interpreting Scripture. He did alright in a coupla' other areas but as a Theologian, he left a lot to be desired. Interpreting Symbols is an iffy thing: See "General Ripper" in "Dr. Strangelove": "I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly...". Truly one of the greatest scenes in all of movie making.
We appear to have (VERY generally speaking) 2 views in the NT. The Pauline view is of a "Christ" who is waiting for you, details of this Christ not needed. Then, there are the Gospels. The Gospels provide the stories of a savior/god whose Disciples never really caught on as to the Nature of their Leader. Make no mistake here. The Gospels are NOT NEEDED for the completion of Salvation. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Compare that with, "If you would enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS". Who said that? That would be "Jesus".
We now have a choice to make. Either the Gospels were created out of whole cloth - with perhaps a little history to keep things interesting - or we look to find if there was some other Set of Events that were rewritten as the story of this savior/god. This may lead to the conclusion that the character "Jesus" was a created character who did not exist. So be it.
I assert that the Texts that were used to create the Gospels, especially the "Miracle Stories", were taken from the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE as chronicled by Josephus (Apparently written originally by a very important person of Historical Importance, one Nicholas of Damascus). You can find the "External Description" of this Atrocity in Antiquities..., Book 17, Chapter 9, Section 3+ and War..., Book 2, Chapter 1, Section 3+. There are many Herod stories in the NT, not always apparent, and other Sources, especially Tacitus and Suetonius. A good candidate for the Eucharist is found in Dio, Epitome 64.
The Story is that there is a child, Peter, who saves a Priest who is caught stranded between the Temple and Antonia when Archelaus supposedly unleashes the soldiers onto the populace, killing 3000+:
Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):
[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
Then there is the follow-up. Two Mishmarot cycles later, a "President of the Synagogue", Jairus, asks a Priest to try one last time to obtain the Hand of God to eliminate the Romans.
Mark 5:
[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
[24] And he went with him. And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him.
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"
[31] And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?'"
...
[35] While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?"
[36] But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe."
...
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
...
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
If you are a believer, there is nothing at all to discuss. If you not a believer but view this as a report on what certain groups of people from 2000 years ago "actually believed" there is not much to argue.
If you can look at this as a Set of POLITICAL STORIES, then you may be able to look at what I see. AGAIN, if the Symbolism makes no sense to you, there is nothing I can say. If, however, someone such as outhouse can at least see and interpret what I see as Symbolic, then an entirely new System will open up. The authors are not Roman or Herodian or from the corrupt High Priesthood. They are from the only Group that could act against these people. They are from the Mishmarot Priesthood.
It is important to see how much of this is "looking back" at the 4 BCE Temple Atrocity from a vantage point 12 years later. There are Time Markers that give dates for Queen Salome, Antigonus, "The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years" and others. If you can consider that the "Realm of Heaven" is a Real, Physical Place then other Stories begin to make sense: "Are there only a few who are saved? Enter through the narrow door..." [The door is so narrow that] "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. ." This from the Story that was stolen and rewritten.
Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):
[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."
I believe that this is from the floor of the Temple before the soldiers kill the 3000. Reread the sections in War, 2, 1, 3 with the Intentionality of someone holding a stone underneath the nose of one of the soldiers and then read the Lukan Passage again with the same feeling:
"[Archelaus] gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them..."
To bring this together: What Group was on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE and the Passover of 9 CE? Immer, the 16th Group of the House of Eleazar. We can show this mathematically. Is there any other item that might help us see why the Stories were taken from this event?
" אמּר ". Strong's H563, without diacriticals. "Immar" <=> "Lamb". OH! I almost forgot! It also means "Immer".
Revelation 5: 6 (RSV, in part):
[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain
Curious phrasing, isn't it?
You don't have to accept this and all the (very considerable) rest of the evidence. If, however, you wish to get started, look at the Gospel Stories and see if they fit the Pattern.
Any questions. Any time.
CW
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
A H M Jones, The Herods of Judaea:outhouse wrote:Herods temple the key to spreading monotheism in the Diaspora began before jesus theology hit it.
"As he replaced the sacerdotal Sanhedrin by a secular council, so Herod built up to replace the old hereditary aristocracy a new aristocracy of service whose members should owe their rank and their wealth to him and to him alone. They were graded according to regular Hellenistic practice in progressive ranks of dignity, "the friends" being the lowest, then "the most honoured friends", then "the guards of the body", and finally "the kinsmen"; the last title, it may be noted, was like others purely honorific and implied no real relationship..."
See also "The Banquet", where you should sit in in a seat of low status at the low end of the table and then be asked to move higher so that you will be "honored" by your "friends". There are many Herod Stories in the NT which are not seen. Herod's Temple is NOT an edifice that promoted Pride. Quite the contrary.
Josephus, Ant..., 15, 11, 6:
"But the temple itself was built by the priests in a year and six months; upon which all the people were full of joy; and presently they returned thanks, in the first place, to God; and in the next place, for the alacrity the king had showed... for at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple fell also the day of the king's inauguration, which he kept of an old custom as a festival, and it now coincided with the other, which coincidence of them both made the festival most illustrious..."
Do not be fooled by the verbiage. This is the creation of the "Woman Bent Over for 18 Years". She is bent over because when she worships God, she worships Herod as well.
Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
Did anyone throw a giant millstone into the sea? Herod did in creating the Safe Harbor at Caesarea. There is a Famine in Judea, so bad that Herod had to sell everything of value in the Palace to buy grain from Petronius in Egypt. He gives away the grain and the worry is that he will attempt to use this act of kindness to change people's minds about him. For some it worked. For those on the outside (The Authors of this verse...) it did not.
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
I thought John was just trying to have Jesus crucified at the exact time the lamb was killed....in his opinion of when that was.
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Re: The Gospels as Midrash
Thank you, David!davidbrainerd wrote:I thought John was just trying to have Jesus crucified at the exact time the lamb was killed....in his opinion of when that was.
I hope that one day we can circle back around and consider the importance of what is implied in the article by Dave Kroll. He states:
"Matthew, Mark and Luke have Jesus seemingly eating the Passover the evening before His trial and crucifixion. John shows the Passover as not yet having been eaten at the time of Jesus’ trial. The eating of the Passover meal is seen as occurring subsequent to the trial and by implication, subsequent to the crucifixion."
Leviticus 23 : 5 - 6 (RSV):
[5] In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is the LORD's passover.
[6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the LORD; seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
YIKES!
John makes the Word Play explicit: " אמּר " means "Lamb" and it also means "Immer, the 16th Mishmarot Group". Pettinato, excavator of the Sumerian City State Ebla, with Falkenberg, examine names and find that often an animal name is placed with a god name. The example given is 'nmmr-Ha'ad, "Panther of Ha'ad", which becomes "Nimrod". 'mmr-Yah would be "Lamb of Yah', "Lamb of God". So the Word Play on the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE finds Immer expecting God to stand with them as they make the perfect sacrifices for the overthrow of the Herodians and the Romans. They are murdered instead, though they survive: "I saw a lamb standing, as though it were slain".
John 1: 29 - 30 (RSV):
[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'
I tend to agree with you concerning GJohn. The intention was to make the "Lamb" to be crucified on Passover. The Synoptics are telling us of a different Passover, where the Group showed up late. This has the barest markings of Midrash. In the end, someone, probably Peter, returns to the Priesthood to end his days. "Behold, the lilies of the field, they toil not (card not?...) neither do they spin."
Good Post!
CW