Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in 135 CE?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by DCHindley »

lsayre wrote:Since the evidence for the persecution of Christians by Bar Kochba seems to rest solely upon the shoulders of Justin Martyr, should he be trusted to be telling the truth?

Are there Roman historians who corroborate any of Justin's claims? Did Christians get preferential treatment or recognition from the Romans afterward for not fighting against them?

In the end, I'm trying to determine if such a distinct and identifiable entity as a Christian even existed in the period of 132-135 CE within the general region of Judea.
In the autographed Bar Kochba letters that have been found in modern times, there is the statement "From Simeon ben Kosiba to Yeshua ben Galgoula and to the men of the fort, peace! I take heaven to witness against me that unless you mobilise [destroy?] the Galileans who are with you every man, I will put fetters upon your feet as I did to ben Aphlul.

The meaning of the word translated "mobilize" is not clear, which is why the alternate translation "destroy?" is bracketed by the translator. Translations of these letters can be found here: http://cojs.org/cojswiki/The_Bar_Kokhba ... the_Revolt

"Galileans" may be a reference to Jesus followers. That Bar Kochba could be a vengeful man is clear from the many orders to arrest and send to him men from various villages, including burning down the houses they took refuge in, or face "punishment" for non-compliance. I am not suggesting that all these folks he ordered to be arrested and sent to him were (Jewish) Christians, but just want to show that he could be very vindictive.

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outhouse
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by outhouse »

davidbrainerd wrote: This statement assumes orthodoxy came first

.

Nope.

What I stated applies to all Christians and all Jews. There in lies the rub, both religions were wide and diverse, but there is a complete division of he two, even early on.
outhouse
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by outhouse »

davidbrainerd wrote: If Christianity developed out of Jewish two powers in heaven heresy into Marcionism then into orthodox Christianity

.
Full stop, no.

Marcionism has nothing to do with the origins of Christianity.

Factually Hellenist divorced cultural Judaism.

Not two powers either. They embraced monotheism by way of he son.

what you call Orthodox, existed early on it, it just won out in time due to popularity.

It started out with diverse views on Christology and as popular groups banned together, only then could someone be labeled a heretic.

There were not only divisions in Christology but division in adherence to laws.
davidbrainerd
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by davidbrainerd »

outhouse wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote: If Christianity developed out of Jewish two powers in heaven heresy into Marcionism then into orthodox Christianity

.
Full stop, no.

Marcionism has nothing to do with the origins of Christianity.

Factually Hellenist divorced cultural Judaism.

Not two powers either. They embraced monotheism by way of he son.

what you call Orthodox, existed early on it, it just won out in time due to popularity.

It started out with diverse views on Christology and as popular groups banned together, only then could someone be labeled a heretic.

There were not only divisions in Christology but division in adherence to laws.
It would not have had to "win out in time" if it was first. Even Justin says Marcion is "still active" meaning he'd been active a long time before, "has persuaded many in every nation under heaven" quite a feat at this early date if heresy is subsequent to orthodoxy.

Not to mention how this alone explains oddities in orthodoxy like Paul's ransom theory and others which obviously must be leftovers of a dualistic two gods theology and could not have arisen in orthodoxy at all but only can be leftovers of the heresy that orthodoxy developed out of, leftover bits it forgot to or couldn't purge.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by MrMacSon »

outhouse wrote:
  • Marcionism has nothing to do with the origins of Christianity.
  • That's not what John Knox*, John T Townsend*, Joseph B Tyson, Markus Vinzent, & Matthias Klinghardt say.

    * eg. Acts is a response to Marcion theology, Acts and the Isaianic New Exodus by David W. Pao; Wipf & Stock Publishers, 6 Jun. 2016
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Blood
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by Blood »

outhouse wrote:
lsayre wrote: In the end, I'm trying to determine if such a distinct and identifiable entity as a Christian even existed in the period of 132-135 CE within the general region of Judea.


The origin of Christianity existed By Hellenist in the diaspora and divorced cultural Judaism and perverted Judaism.

Christians would be blasphemous to Israelites, in Jerusalem, Tiberius, Sepphoris where Hellenism was popular, you might see some small pockets, but there is no evidence at all in support.

Christianity appealed to Gentiles and Proselytes, not Jews
:clap: Yep.

I'd guess the pioneering Christians circa 135 were like Justin Martyr or Valentinus or Marcion. Greek philosophy students geeking out over the discovery of the LXX and applying Stoic and Platonic interpretations to same. De-Judaizing the LXX in order to make it safe for Gentiles like themselves.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by MrMacSon »

Blood wrote:
outhouse wrote:
The origin of Christianity [started] by Hellenist[s] in the diaspora and divorced cultural Judaism and perverted Judaism.

Christians would be blasphemous to Israelites, in Jerusalem, Tiberius, Sepphoris where Hellenism was popular, you might see some small pockets, but there is no evidence at all in support.

Christianity appealed to Gentiles and Proselytes, not Jews
  • :clap: Yep.

    I'd guess the pioneering Christians circa 135 were like Justin Martyr or Valentinus or Marcion. Greek philosophy students geeking out over the discovery of the LXX and applying Stoic and Platonic interpretations to same. De-Judaizing the LXX in order to make it safe for Gentiles like themselves.
  • Though there is some commentary that what started as 'Christianity' outside Judaism later became Judaized.
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arnoldo
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by arnoldo »

Igantius of Antioch comes to mind. However, Magnus Zetterholm uses Ignatius to argue in favor that Christianity started as a jewish sect in his doctoral dissertation/book,
The Formation of Christianity in Antioch: A Social-Scientific Approach to the Separation Between Judaism and Christianity
outhouse
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by outhouse »

MrMacSon wrote:
outhouse wrote:
  • Marcionism has nothing to do with the origins of Christianity.
  • That's not what John Knox*, John T Townsend*, Joseph B Tyson, Markus Vinzent, & Matthias Klinghardt say.

    * eg. Acts is a response to Marcion theology, Acts and the Isaianic New Exodus by David W. Pao; Wipf & Stock Publishers, 6 Jun. 2016

No one cares what this fringe group with no evidence posits.

They do not have a leg to stand on.
outhouse
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Re: Did such an identifiable entity as a Christian exist in

Post by outhouse »

Blood wrote:
outhouse wrote:
lsayre wrote: In the end, I'm trying to determine if such a distinct and identifiable entity as a Christian even existed in the period of 132-135 CE within the general region of Judea.


The origin of Christianity existed By Hellenist in the diaspora and divorced cultural Judaism and perverted Judaism.

Christians would be blasphemous to Israelites, in Jerusalem, Tiberius, Sepphoris where Hellenism was popular, you might see some small pockets, but there is no evidence at all in support.

Christianity appealed to Gentiles and Proselytes, not Jews
:clap: Yep.

I'd guess the pioneering Christians circa 135 were like Justin Martyr or Valentinus or Marcion. Greek philosophy students geeking out over the discovery of the LXX and applying Stoic and Platonic interpretations to same. De-Judaizing the LXX in order to make it safe for Gentiles like themselves.
The thing is by that time, it was so wide spread, these people were already getting their two cents in on it. As well as every other tom dick and harry promoting their own versions of their Christology with Hellenistic Judaism tinsel on the tree with a cross on top.
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