Couchoud about the paternity of the earliest Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13883
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Couchoud about the paternity of the earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

I think that prof Vinzent is too much rapid to conclude that Couchoud was his precursor in assuming that Marcion was the first evangelist.

In another work of Couchoud, I see that Couchoud's view is more similar to Klinghardt's view: Marcion didn't write but he used the earliest Gospel.
As the letters of Paul and how the Apocalypse, the Gospels are works of the Spirit concerning the Spirit. In their fresh innovations they were well understood. The first who treated a Gospel, that of Luke, as a sacred writing, imposing the interpretation at meetings, Marcion, saw in it a spiritual Jesus, not Jesus of flesh and blood. We read the Gospels as Marcion read them.
Against the thought of Marcion, Jesus was made historical to the extreme, he was given a real flesh, real bones, real blood. Marcion was condemned.
Marcion was right. Those who condemned him made it more dense the darkness of Christian origins and made it impenetrable. Unwittingly, they prepared all that was necessary so that it was believed that the early Christianity was nothing more than this ancient story without religious value, this nonsense: the deification of a man.
(Paul-Louis Couchoud, The mysteries of Jesus , my emphasis)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Couchoud about the paternity of the earliest Gospel

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote:I think that prof Vinzent is too much rapid to conclude that Couchoud was his precursor in assuming that Marcion was the first evangelist.

In another work of Couchoud, I see that Couchoud's view is more similar to Klinghardt's view: Marcion didn't write but he used the earliest Gospel.
Which view of Klinghardt's are you referring to? eg. Klinghardt's view many have changed from 2008 to 2015.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13883
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Couchoud about the paternity of the earliest Gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

Klinghardt suggests that the Marcionite Gospel is first, on which Mark dependended. Matthew used both Mark and the Marcionite Gospel. John used the previous three, and Luke used all the previous four.

"The search for the 'historical Jesus', therefore, becomes a completely different, if not an impossible, task" (321).

"although it is not impossible that a gospel existed before the middle of the second century, there is simply not even the slightest shred of evidence for any written gospel prior to that time" (322).

Klinghardt notes that many of the readings attributed to Marcion's Gospel show up as variant readings in the textual tradition of Luke, leading him to conclude that "this gospel was not the arbitrary product of a mean-spirited heretic but, quite simply and obviously, an older text utilised by many, including Marcion himself. And that text was, quite simply and obviously, edited by Luke" (322).
http://sanctushieronymus.blogspot.it/20 ... ament.html
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Couchoud about the paternity of the earliest Gospel

Post by MrMacSon »

"The latest issue of New Testament Studies [Volume 63 - Issue 2 - April 2017] contains a collection of brief essays on the topic of Marcion's Gospel...

  • Marcion's Gospel and the New Testament: Catalyst or Consequence? pp. 318-323
    Matthias Klinghardt

    Marcion's Gospel and the New Testament: Catalyst or Consequence? pp. 324-9
    Jason Beduhn

    Marcion's Gospel and the New Testament: Catalyst or Consequence? pp. 329-334
    Judith Lieu
"Matthias Klinghardt and Jason BeDuhn both argue against the charge leveled by Marcion's patristic opponents that Marcion redacted a form of Luke's Gospel, asserting to the contrary that Marcion's Gospel preceded both Marcion and Luke and was in fact the earliest Gospel written [This is different from the view of Markus Vinzent, who thinks that Marcion himself actually wrote the earliest Gospel: for a critical interaction with Vinzent's book, see [Dieter Roth's March 2015 comments] here]."

"In the present article, Klinghardt summarizes his work, arguing that
  • "in almost every single instance the direction of the editorial process runs from the Marcionite Gospel to Luke. Some passages - such as the beginning of the gospel or the account of the Last Supper - confirm this editorial direction beyond any doubt. True, there are indeed a few examples where the editorial process could run in either direction, but none of these examples requires, or even suggests, a reversal of the Marcionite priority. (319)"
"How do the other Gospels - especially Matthew and Mark - fit into the picture?
  • "The most obvious consequence of the priority of the Marcionite Gospel over Luke relates to the Synoptic Problem: when taking this 'pre-Lukan' gospel into account, the model of the inter-gospel relations changes profoundly. Most remarkably, this model disposes of the need for 'Q': the Two-Source Theory becomes entirely redundant, and the other models in discussion - such as the Farrer-Goulder-Goodacre hypothesis or the Neo-Griesbach Theory - are irrelevant. (320)"
Klinghardt suggests that the Marcionite Gospel is first, on which Mark depended. Matthew used both Mark and the Marcionite Gospel. John used the previous three, and Luke used all the previous four.

"The search for the 'historical Jesus', therefore, becomes a completely different, if not an impossible, task" (321).

"although it is not impossible that a gospel existed before the middle of the second century, there is simply not even the slightest shred of evidence for any written gospel prior to that time" (322).


Klinghardt notes that many of the readings attributed to Marcion's Gospel show up as variant readings in the textual tradition of Luke, leading him to conclude that "this gospel was not the arbitrary product of a mean-spirited heretic but, quite simply and obviously, an older text utilised by many, including Marcion himself. And that text was, quite simply and obviously, edited by Luke" (322).

BeDuhn
  • Once we ... objectively examine the texts of the two gospels, it becomes immediately clear that Marcion's Gospel cannot be an ideologically motivated redaction of Luke, for the simple reason that the two gospels are practically identical in ideology. (324)
...BeDuhn sees Luke as a Marcionite-neutral redaction of the Marcionite Gospel, which perhaps took place prior to Marcion. He says: "...it could even be suggested that Luke is a second edition of Marcion's Gospel by the same author." BeDuhn also thinks that the Two-Source hypothesis may be correct, once Luke is replaced in the equation with the Marcionite Gospel and the reconstruction of Q proceeds along these new lines.

... in this article [BeDun] offers an interesting discussion of the divergent concepts of the collection of books promoted by Marcion and his opponents. He does seem to assume that Marcion had a clearly defined canon.

Lieu

In this article she argues that our complete ignorance of Marcion and his Gospel from any source other than his opponents should make us cautious.
  • It is, therefore, misleading to suppose that Marcion's Gospel has survived and is available for comparative analysis, as one might with the canonical gospels. Although attempts to reconstruct Marcion's Gospel multiply, claims to achieve any precision must be treated with considerable scepticism. (330)
[Elsewhere she judges rather positively Roth's work.]

.
Post Reply