Paul --- The Wrath to Come

[robert j]

Paul didn’t spend much ink dwelling on the fate of those left behind when “the dead in Christ” and “those of Christ” are whooshed-up to heaven “at His coming” ---

… the Lord Himself will descend from heaven … and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for meeting of the Lord in the air, and so we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

… resurrection from the dead … but each in the own order, Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming. Then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father … (1 Corinthians 15:21-24)

But what about the non-believers, those not “of Christ”?

Paul did mention the concept of a future wrath ---

… Jesus, the one delivering us from the coming the wrath (τῆς ὀργῆς). (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

... because God has not destined us for wrath (εἰς ὀργὴν), but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

… justified now by His blood,we will be saved by Him from the wrath(τῆς ὀργῆς). (Romans 5:9)

But deliverance from the wrath was not universal, it was conditional ---

Forwhoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)

Paul’s letters were occasional, not theological treatises. It seems Paul delivered the tenets of his system during his evangelizing visits --- but we do see glimpses in his letters.

That Paul used the OT is not disputed. Some direct parallels are found, but typologies, symbolism, and creative readings are more prevalent. And of course, Paul freely substituted his Lord Jesus Christ for the OT Lord (Yahweh) when it suited his need.

Paul associated the coming of the Lord, and the beginning of the resurrection from the dead, with the sounding of a trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, see also 1 Corinthians 15:52). I think a passage from Joel can help fill-in some blanks, especially regarding the coming wrath for non-believers.

This passage in Joel is rife with Pauline concepts --- the trumpet associated with the coming of the Lord, a coming wrath, and what appears to be a very Pauline conclusion with a very Pauline sounding salvation for believers --- (Joel, from the LXX) (emphasis mine) ---

Trumpet with a trumpetin Zion; make proclamation on my holy mountain! And let all the inhabitants of the land be confounded, for the day of the Lord has come, because it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of cloud and mist! (Joel 2:1-2)

The long chapter 2 continues with both sticks and carrots, but a lot of wrath ---

In front of him there is a consuming fire, and a kindled flame behind him; the land before him is like an orchard of delight, but a plain of annihilation behind him, and no one shall escape him. (Joel 2:3)

Before him peoples will be crushed; every face will be like the soot of an earthen pot. (Joel 2:6)

For great is the day of the Lord, great and exceedingly remarkable, and who shall be sufficient for it? (Joel 2:11)

And the trumpet again, along with a Pauline sounding concept of gathering and sanctifying an assembly. Paul used the same term (ἐκκλησίαν -- assembly) in his phrase “assembly of God”, and for his congregations in his Lord Jesus Christ ---

Trumpet with the trumpet in Sion; sanctify a fast; proclaim a service; gather the people. Sanctify an assembly (ἐκκλησίαν) … (Joel 2:15-16)

And the very Pauline sounding conclusion to the pericope, including a verbatim parallel with Romans 10:13. Here is a salvific announcement of good news --- to those calling upon the name of the Lord. Paul used the very same verb, as found in Joel here, several time in his letters for his teaching about his Jesus Christ. The verb is from the same root word that Paul used many times as a noun in a propriety sense, (τὸ εὐαγγέλιον) “the gospel” or "the announcement of good news" ---

I will give portents in the heaven and on earth: blood and fire and the vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and notable day of the Lord. And it will be all whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be one rescuing, as the Lord has said, and one announcing good news (ευαγγελιζόμενος), in which the Lord was called. (Joel 2:30-32 --- Joel 3:3-5 in some versions)

robert j

[Blood]

The simplest explanation is that the letters were written after AD 70 and the "wrath" Paul was supposedly predicting in these (fake) letters was coming against "the Jews" (1 Thess 2:16) and was fulfilled by the Roman destruction of the Temple ... which, far from being "traumatic" to Christians (Gentiles), was the ultimate affirmation of their faith. They could then go to other weak-minded Gentiles and say, "See? We were right all along." Then they wrote some letters from a Jewish prophet-cum-Christian (Paul) that predicted all this and what meant.

[FransJVermeiren]

The simplest explanation is that the letters were written after AD 70 and the "wrath" Paul was supposedly predicting in these (fake) letters was coming against "the Jews" (1 Thess 2:16)

I don't believe things are as simple as that. 1 Thess 2:16 does not speak of the wrath to come, but about God's wrath which has already come. 1 Thess 2:14-16 is a post-70 interpolation, in contradiction with the future wrath which Paul frequently mentions in his original pre-70 writings (see the OP above).
I believe we should try to understand the main current of Paul's writings, and this main current is fundamentally oriented to the future: the wrath to come, the future day of the Lord, the future coming of the Christ, impending distress, groaning in travail, hoping and waiting.

The best example of this orientation to the future, expressed in hoping and waiting (my emphasis), is Romans 8:18-25, but there are many others:

18 I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation is groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

This means 6 times hoping and 3 times waiting in a fragment that is fully oriented to the future. In my opinion this text makes clear that Paul, writing in the 50's of the first century CE, was not aware of the great events described in the gospels. Two decades after Jesus' supposed activity 'under Pilate' Paul is still anticipating the coming of the Christ, on a wrathful future day of the Lord.

Frequently the 'second coming' argument is used to explain these fragments, but Paul never speaks of a second coming, in wording nor in line of thought. The second coming is a scholarly construction in an attempt to make sense out of something that doesn't make any sense in the traditional chronology.

[Giuseppe]

The simplest explanation is that the letters were written after AD 70 and the "wrath" Paul was supposedly predicting in these (fake) letters was coming against "the Jews" (1 Thess 2:16) and was fulfilled by the Roman destruction of the Temple ... which, far from being "traumatic" to Christians (Gentiles), was the ultimate affirmation of their faith. They could then go to other weak-minded Gentiles and say, "See? We were right all along." Then they wrote some letters from a Jewish prophet-cum-Christian (Paul) that predicted all this and what meant.

If I remember well, a Dutch Radical , Gustav Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, claimed that the case for the non-historicity of Jesus becomes more strong with the original pauline epistles, and not the contrary.

[FransJVermeiren]

Giuseppe wrote:
If I remember well, a Dutch Radical , Gustav Adolf van den Bergh van Eysinga, claimed that the case for the non-historicity of Jesus becomes more strong with the original pauline epistles, and not the contrary.

The original stratum of the Pauline letters contradicts a Jesus 'under Pilate' as described in the Gospels. Paul the trailblazer of a future anti-Roman messiah has been recuperated after the war as a follower of Jesus the messiah.

[Giuseppe]

Ok but then you should reduce of the 50% the probability in support of the your general thesis (historical Jesus = Jesus ben Saphat) since you are assuming gratuitously that the word "Jesus" was added only later in the original epistles.

[Blood]

I don't believe things are as simple as that. 1 Thess 2:16 does not speak of the wrath to come, but about God's wrath which has already come. 1 Thess 2:14-16 is a post-70 interpolation, in contradiction with the future wrath which Paul frequently mentions in his original pre-70 writings (see the OP above).

I believe we should try to understand the main current of Paul's writings, and this main current is fundamentally oriented to the future: the wrath to come, the future day of the Lord, the future coming of the Christ, impending distress, groaning in travail, hoping and waiting.

So you're argument for "interpolation" is that 1 The 2:16 is in the present tense, while all other references to the "wrath" are in future tense?

[FransJVermeiren]

So you're argument for "interpolation" is that 1 The 2:16 is in the present tense, while all other references to the "wrath" are in future tense?

There is not only the present perfect tense of the last sentence. The εἰς τἐλος at the end of the paragraph can as well be translated as ‘completely’ of ‘for ever’, making reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple probable. But most of all there is the issue of collective guilt of ‘the Jews’ as a people for the death of Jesus, and the punishment for that alleged crime through the near-annihilation of the Jewish nation.

See also 2Thess 2:3-5 that stages Titus as the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition.

[DCHindley]

So you're argument for "interpolation" is that 1 The 2:16 is in the present tense, while all other references to the "wrath" are in future tense?

There is not only the present perfect tense of the last sentence. The εἰς τἐλος at the end of the paragraph can as well be translated as ‘completely’ of ‘for ever’, making reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple probable. But most of all there is the issue of collective guilt of ‘the Jews’ as a people for the death of Jesus, and the punishment for that alleged crime through the near-annihilation of the Jewish nation.

See also 2Thess 2:3-5 that stages Titus as the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition.

Titus? I thought that HC critics generally identify the "man of sin" as Gaius (Caligula) and "he who now letteth" (restrains), who the writer expected to be quickly removed, was Petronius, legate of Syria, who willfully disobeyed Caligula's orders to erect the statue (already in Petronius' hands) by making excuses.

DCH

[davidbrainerd]

What is conspicuously missing in Paul is wrath after death or resurrection to face wrath. It appears the wrath is only for unbelievers who are alive and remain at the 'second coming' (or whatever else you might want to call it).