Did Paul exist during the War?

[Peter Kirby]

(More generally; if one wishes to argue that the references to Jerusalem in Paul are genuine but after 70 CE, then the issue is not just the existence of a Christian community [in Jerusalem] at this time but the apparent importance and authority of this community. )

Andrew Criddle

That still begs-the-question.

[ ] are my additions.

No, you misunderstand entirely. The quote given (1 Cor 9:13) doesn't refer to a Christian community in Jerusalem, plain and simple. Your rejoinder doesn't really make any sense, because the Christians were not priests making sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem, on anybody's account.

Andrew is referring to other passages in Paul, where Jerusalem is mentioned in the context of an important Christian community.

It's a separate point entirely.

Romans 15:25 At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints.

Romans 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.

Romans 15:31 that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints,

1 Corinthians 16:3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.

Galatians 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Galatians 2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.

[Peter Kirby]

Which Temple? Where? When?

Yes, naturally, that's what I said!

I made this kind of point when I was arguing against Andrew, myself.

So the question one must ask of this passage is simple. What does this sentence refer to, the temple in Jerusalem specifically, or the existence of those who make their living employed in temple service generally? Based on the context, the last reference to a temple was here:

1 Cor 8:10. "For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?"

And the general plausibility of such a reference is also indicated by Romans 2:22. "You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?"

Andrew Criddle replied:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155#p1047

Hi Peter

The word for idol's temple in 8:10 is quite different from the word for temple in 9:13 it is not a parallel. I agree that hIERON could be used for a pagan temple. But I would be surprised to see ThUSIASTHRION altar used of a pagan altar.

Jerusalem is also the base for Cephas and other apostles quite apart from the brethren of the Lord such as James. I'm not sure what scenario you are suggesting as a possibility. Is it one in which there is a Jerusalem church before and after 70 CE ruled by leaders claiming to be relatives of Jesus with Paul only coming along after 70 CE ?

Andrew Criddle

Andrew also replied, again:

Hi Jay

The issue is the specific word THUSIASTHRION . It is not a usual Greek word. It is a primarily Septuagintal/Jewish Hellenist/Christian word. In the NT it always refers to altars (literal or symbolic) to the Jewish/Christian God. In the Septuagint it usually means an altar for Yahweh but it can occasionally be used for an altar stone for Baal. I am not aware of it being used for a pagan Greek sacrificial table,

As I said in my reply to Peter the passage about an idol temple uses quite different vocabulary. However there is a parallel use of THUSIASTHRION in 1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel according to the flesh. Are not they that eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? which is definitely talking of the Jewish altar.

Andrew Criddle

We can set aside the war over the Greek words (... which should be given to Andrew, who has a clear command of Greek and an unassuming way of keeping to the facts in general ...) and just make a mental note that the statement one chapter later tends to be a better citation for these kinds of arguments.

1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel according to the flesh. Are not they that eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

It's always possible to try to shove in some wedge of doubt. That's not very interesting, though. It's not very discerning either.

[Peter Kirby]

Thanks Peter for this quote of Andrew:

1 Corinthians 9:13

Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?

seems to imply that the temple is still in operation.

(More generally; if one wishes to argue that the references to Jerusalem in Paul are genuine but after 70 CE then the issue is not just the existence of a Christian community in Jerusalem at this time but the apparent importance and authority of this community. )

Andrew Criddle

It seems very conclusive evidence of a Paul before 70. The alternative would be to imagine a forger who knew in advance that the reader would have suspected about the precise date of the epistle and hence he would have made the reference to an existing Temple deliberately.

A forger cannot be so prudent.

Glad to oblige, and glad you found it of use. (And I must give you credit where credit's due, here. Nicely done, sorry for doubting you.)

[MrMacSon]

(More generally; if one wishes to argue that the references to Jerusalem in Paul are genuine but after 70 CE, then the issue is not just the existence of a Christian community [in Jerusalem] at this time but the apparent importance and authority of this community. )

Andrew Criddle

That still begs-the-question.

[ ] are my additions.

No, you misunderstand entirely.

No I don't (not entirely, anyway).

Yes, I realise "The quote given (1 Cor 9:13) doesn't refer to a Christian community in Jerusalem, plain and simple."

and "the Christians were not priests making sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem, on anybody's account."

and "Andrew is referring to other passages in Paul, where Jerusalem is mentioned in the context of an important Christian community."

I think there's a reasonable chance most if not all the references to Jerusalem in the Pauline epistles are later additional redactions.