What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

[Charles Wilson]

That is like US President Donald Trump cutting science research budgets because many, maybe even most, of them think that mankind is contributing to global warming and, horrors, that species evolve over time. This approach does not help cancer cure research or contribute to direct applications of the discoveries of pure science.

O. M. G.

You're one of "Those People", aren't you DCH? If you don't pay your water bill in Detroit, water is a Human Right. If there's a water shortage in California and the western US, "Just put in another faucet...". Yeah, that'll cure the problem. What we need are more "Dollar-a-Day People". "WE can just take the best that Society has to offer and use them as Technocrats to properly control the Proles".

outhouse, there's another Hellenism Thesis for you to look into here.

Matthew 17: 25 - 27 (RSV):

[25] He said, "Yes." And when he came home, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their sons or from others?"
[26] And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.
[27] However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel; take that and give it to them for me and for yourself."

Is this History or Fiction? Is it Fiction in the sense of "Cannibal Mary" in Josephus during the Siege, a stylized Soliloquy that no one hears except Josephus? What about "The Banquet"? You must sit at the low end of the Banquet Table until you are asked to move up and be Honored by your Friends. Is this a History of a "Jesus" or a History of Herod Ordering the Court along Greek Lines? How about the Disciple, friend of Peter, who walks into the Big Building before "Jesus" is about to be condemned. What History does THAT illustrate?

One way of looking at it might be to see that there was an intermediate level of Bureaucrat. The "Kinsmen" take their Tribute from the Lowers AND THE LOWERS TAKE THEIR TAXES FROM THE "FISH". That's the story in Josephus concerning Agrippa and I assert that this story is the Basis.

Which brings us to Trump Derangement Syndrom. 'N Jerry Brown, who is getting ready to require Catalytic Converters on cows to take care of Cow Flatulence - No, really. "All it takes is votes and we will bring Paradise on Earth". See also: Nancy Pelosi, thief.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Nero":

"At last, while his companions one and all urged him to save himself as soon as possible from the indignities that threatened him, he bade them dig a grave in his presence, proportioned to the size of his own person, and at the same time bring water and wood for presently disposing of his body. As each of these things was done, he wept and said again and again: "What an artist the world is losing!"

History? Fiction? It's not so easy. Trump Derangement Syndrome doesn't help. (All said tongue in cheek...Ya' know?...)

[davidbrainerd]

I wonder what official history will say about who did the chimical weapons attack, Assad or ISIS. Its one thing I massively disagree with Trump on. During the campaign he said no regime change in Syria, we're only gonna fight ISIS but not topple Assad; now he's calling for regime change because CNN (which he normally calls fake news) ran a fake CIA cooked up story that Assad used chemical weapons and it made Ivanka and her limpwrist husband cry. So they showed Trump the puppydog eyes and he took Ivanka up into his lap and said "Oh darling, its ok, regardless who did the chemical attacks I'll bomb Assad and start saber rattling for regime change to make my little girl happy. Screw the voters." And she said "Oh daddy I love you, you're the best daddy ever." Oh well. At least some of the illegals will de deported before Russia nukes us.

[spin]

Why has this thread run its course so quickly?

[lsayre]

A plot.

[DCHindley]

Why has this thread run its course so quickly?

Maybe they thought this was about "historical fiction"?

It's just the usual unwillingness to deal with a legitimate issue. In 1,000 years, we will all be dead as door nails, so we can believe whatever we want now. That's the *other* end of the postmodern movement, the ones who believe that because history is relative to the interpreter, that anything goes. Woo-hoo! History DeJuror.

But again, before all the right wingers formerly found on the Free Ratio Discussion Board (whatever happened to that, besides disintegrating) get their rocks off bashing us poor deluded closet apologists, let's get back to the characteristics that are supposed to make a narrative "history" or "faction." My point is that there are none, the communication techniques are identical.

If one wants to say that it is the intent of the writer, which is often discernible if they are writing a book for sale as fiction, or for serious historical inquiry, that is OK. Unfortunately, even this question is mucked up by discussions about "historical fiction" which is not the same thing as fiction passed off as history. The Hitler Dairies were like historical fiction, but the intent was to dupe a publisher into thinking they were real dairies written by Hitler, in hopes of snagging a publisher's advance or an offer from a museum.

We can make fun of Governor Brown by making up a cow catalytic converter story, until the ultraviolet rays dry up our legal pot growing fields. My doctor thinks that the only "fake news" out there is news that there is fake news out there. Pffpfft! We won't need bug zappers 1,000 years in the future. Besides, Jesus will have returned by then, just as the melting ice caps will have inundated coastal towns and smog causes most folks to get lung cancer at age 10, and nonbelievers will then roast in hell. "Ignatius! Do I smell bread baking?"

FWIW, making fun of info that causes cognitive dissonance is another classic defense mechanism.

DCH

[MrMacSon]

I wrote a post blowing my top about the inappropriateness of these two terms [fiction v History, I presume] as used by most people on this forum, which upon reflection I deleted, because I could foresee the banal responses I would get. But fuck it, I [wish] people would just plain stop using the term "fiction" with regard to ancient materials they think are not veracious. Fiction is modern intentioned narrative, deliberately written with the knowledge that it did not reflect events that took place in the past, usually written for entertainment. Yes, I know some people use the term "fiction" also for the popular notion regarding text that is not "true", while "history is "true". Most ancient writers of the past did not write fiction, though there is a small body of ancient fiction. Most ancient writers did not write history for they lacked the basic understanding of historiography to do so. Few understood what Herodotus started in his histories, that Thucydides and Polybius honed, but they were consciously writing history. Few Romans beside Tacitus got the idea. Most writers were tradents of traditions they received into their worldviews and passed on mediated through those worldviews and perhaps embellished or improved upon during the mediation.

The best that we can hope for is that they writers believed that what they passed on reflected the past, though few of them had means for testing the belief. The tradition was taken on through trust. Our job from this stuff is to discern history, ie figure out what happened in the past.

I think the correct term for what a lot of ancient writers were doing is narrating. They were writing narratives.

[MrMacSon]

The Leftist narrative about Trump is a good example of fiction.

lol. The anti-Trump narratives about Trump are as much centre or centre-right as they are left.

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Leftists really believe their own narrative about Trump, so they think its history. Even their absurd future predictions are history to them. A thousand years from now if archeologists were to take their texts seriously, they'd think Trump put gays in gas chambers and banned all forms of birth control. So when we read "history" what are we really reading?

I think its a pretty good barometer of what's crazy to check if you support it. If archaeologists 1000 years from now found your written history of Trump he'd end up as the Catholic editor of the book of Revelation or something.

1,000 yrs from now there will many more accurate accounts of what happened in 2017 beyond supposition if someone found one or 10 out of 1,000s of commentaries.

Attributing all Trump commentary to 'the left' is ludicrous.

[davidbrainerd]

It was a big mistake for Hindley to bring up Trump, because we know he exists. Osama Bin Laden might have been a better example, since its at least a possibility he was only Obama in a mask. The historical fiction of going psycho accusing one's opponents of complete fabrications like gassing unicorns in concentration camps (although a hilarious example of Leftist stupidity) has very little to do with the historical fiction, fiction, or dubious history of persons whose existence is in question, like the Leftist hero Mohammed, evidence for whose existence is confined to the laughable Hadith literature (even the Koran barely mentioning him).

[MrMacSon]

It was a big mistake for Hindley to bring up Trump, because we know he exists.

There is no reference to Trump in the OP. You could have ignored DCH's reference to Trump in his second post rather than use it to rant and attempt to maliciously derail the thread (your use of 'big' there shows your resentful malice).

Osama Bin Laden might have been a better example, since its at least a possibility he was only Obama in a mask.

• What a highly deluded and also resentful proposition.

The historical fiction of going psycho accusing one's opponents of complete fabrications like gassing unicorns in concentration camps

• Yep. You are full psycho.

the Leftist hero Mohammed

• lol.

evidence for whose existence is confined to the laughable Hadith literature (even the Koran barely mentioning him).

• Something I can finally agree with.

[Peter Kirby]

Please consider starting a thread on the existence of Muhammad thing in the other forum. It could use some attention.